# US diplomat's wife kills UK teenager, claims diplomatic immunity **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 7, 2019, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400 "2019-10-07T07:38:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2019, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/261 "2019-12-23T17:08:17Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Naw, it’s vengeance. I’m sure you’re right, **Puzzlegal**. Now let’s suppose, for example, some Pakistani guy, stationed in the United States working for the Pakistani government, and with dubious/questionable diplomatic status, killed an innocent young American girl in a road accident - driving on the wrong side of the road + _some other unreleased circumstances_. Then he fled the country claiming diplomatic immunity, rather than face a charge of dangerous driving in a US court, and Pakistan refused to extradite him. I just know you would be highly supportive of that Pakistani guy, **Puzzlegal** - because anybody can make an honest mistake about which side of the road you drive on in the USA, right? And I’m sure you would feel that the parents of that young girl were overreacting if they made a fuss about it. After all, if your kid gets killed, it’s just one of things. They should get over it, and stop seeking vengeance and persecuting that poor, innocent Pakistani official. I mean, if the same thing happened in Pakistan, it would be regarded as trivial, so why should he have to face harsh foreign laws in an American court? That’s unreasonable. It’s always nice to see someone with such a keen sense of justice. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2019, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/262 "2019-12-23T17:26:01Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > But if she can’t be punished anyway, yes, obsessing over whether the case can be fully investigated is about seeking vengeance. And any desire for a 14 year prison term is certainly about vengeance – unless she was high on some illegal drug or gunning to kill someone that day, that’s WAY more punishment than fits the crime – which may be a misdemeanor, in US terms. It turns in the first instance on whether she can face a court here, but if she can, the CPS has determined what charge is justified, having heard what the police have been able to investigate. Who said anything about “desire” for a 14-year term? It’s the specified maximum for this offence, but prosecutors in the UK have no say on sentencing (still less do grieving relatives). The CPS’s job is to assess whether the evidence amounts to a 50% or better chance of conviction, and to prepare the case for trial. What punishment may fit the crime depends on that evidence once a court has heard it and a jury has determined whether the case is proved: one of \*our \*courts following _our_ law. What might happen in US terms is neither here nor there. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2019, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/263 "2019-12-23T18:03:55Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > I’m sure you’re right, **Puzzlegal**. > > Now let’s suppose, for example, some Pakistani guy, stationed in the United States working for the Pakistani government, and with dubious/questionable diplomatic status, killed an innocent young American girl in a road accident - driving on the wrong side of the road + _some other unreleased circumstances_. Then he fled the country claiming diplomatic immunity, rather than face a charge of dangerous driving in a US court, and Pakistan refused to extradite him. > > I just know you would be highly supportive of that Pakistani guy, **Puzzlegal** - because anybody can make an honest mistake about which side of the road you drive on in the USA, right? … > > It’s always nice to see someone with such a keen sense of justice. I have always been very against prison for a accident. American or Pakistani. And of course Sacoolas left the UK on the advice of the State Dept, not her own volition. She didnt have a lot of choice. SHE didnt claim Diplomatic immunity, the State dept did that for her. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2019, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/264 "2019-12-23T18:15:03Z")
Until it is tested in court, how can you assume it is an accident? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2019, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/265 "2019-12-23T18:17:31Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > I’m sure you’re right, **Puzzlegal**. > > Now let’s suppose, for example, some Pakistani guy, stationed in the United States working for the Pakistani government, and with dubious/questionable diplomatic status, killed an innocent young American girl in a road accident - driving on the wrong side of the road + _some other unreleased circumstances_. Then he fled the country claiming diplomatic immunity, rather than face a charge of dangerous driving in a US court, and Pakistan refused to extradite him. > > I just know you would be highly supportive of that Pakistani guy, **Puzzlegal** - because anybody can make an honest mistake about which side of the road you drive on in the USA, right? And I’m sure you would feel that the parents of that young girl were overreacting if they made a fuss about it. After all, if your kid gets killed, it’s just one of things. They should get over it, and stop seeking vengeance and persecuting that poor, innocent Pakistani official. I mean, if the same thing happened in Pakistan, it would be regarded as trivial, so why should he have to face harsh foreign laws in an American court? That’s unreasonable. > > It’s always nice to see someone with such a keen sense of justice. I don’t blame the parents or think they are over-reacting. It’s their child, after all. I do feel like a lot of the posters on this board are over-reacting. If the Pakistani had fled the US at the advice of his state department, and I didn’t know the people, I honestly wouldn’t care very much. No, I don’t feel that justice demands the Pakistani be extradited. For a traffic accident? To what gain? The guy is no longer in the country, and certainly won’t do it again. And I’m dubious that the British punishment would be significantly different from the US punishment. I’m not sure where you got that. I just don’t know the right words for the UK variations of offence, so I used the words I am familiar with. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2019, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/266 "2019-12-23T19:10:28Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > Until it is tested in court, how can you assume it is an accident? No one is entertaining any idea that it was \*deliberate. \*It was a accident, of that there is not doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2019, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/267 "2019-12-23T19:14:35Z")
Are you against prison terms for drunk drivers? If they kill someone, it’s still an accident. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2019, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/268 "2019-12-23T20:58:28Z")
So… I think people are using “accident” to mean different things. I work in the insurance industry, and we distinguish between at-fault accidents and not-at-fault accidents. So the way I use the word, it doesn’t mean no one is to blame. It means the outcome was unintended. Someone is at fault in the vast majority of auto accidents. The others would be things like when a deer suddenly runs in front of a car. But I think some of you are using “accident” to mean no one is at fault. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2019, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/269 "2019-12-24T05:42:35Z")
Precisely so. There could be a range of explanations as to how this happened. But explanations are not necessarily excuses. Some might be exculpatory, and justify no legal action. Some might be pleas in mitigation of sentence. Some might even make things worse for the person responsible. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2019, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/270 "2019-12-24T06:02:56Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Are you against prison terms for drunk drivers? If they kill someone, it’s still an accident. _Prison_? Nope, not even for them. Some _jail_ time for 2nd + offenders may be the right thing. But they did a \*deliberate \*act- got drunk and went driving, so some time in jail might be the right thing. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2019, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/271 "2019-12-24T06:04:43Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > So… I think people are using “accident” to mean different things. I work in the insurance industry, and we distinguish between at-fault accidents and not-at-fault accidents. So the way I use the word, it doesn’t mean no one is to blame. It means the outcome was unintended. > > Someone is at fault in the vast majority of auto accidents. The others would be things like when a deer suddenly runs in front of a car. > > But I think some of you are using “accident” to mean no one is at fault. Right. It wasnt deliberate, thus it was a accident. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2019, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/272 "2019-12-24T06:50:47Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > It turns in the first instance on whether she can face a court here, but if she can, the CPS has determined what charge is justified, having heard what the police have been able to investigate. Who said anything about “desire” for a 14-year term? It’s the specified maximum for this offence, but prosecutors in the UK have no say on sentencing (still less do grieving relatives). The CPS’s job is to assess whether the evidence amounts to a 50% or better chance of conviction, and to prepare the case for trial. What punishment may fit the crime depends on that evidence once a court has heard it and a jury has determined whether the case is proved: one of \*our \*courts following _our_ law. What might happen in US terms is neither here nor there. Your faith in the CPS is touching. And the Courts adherence to sentencing guidelines in cases with lots of publicity. Mrs CIA agent is as unsympathetic an accused as they come ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2019, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/273 "2019-12-24T07:02:54Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Your faith in the CPS is touching. And the Courts adherence to sentencing guidelines in cases with lots of publicity. Well, if you don’t trust anyone to do their job properly, why should we bother at all? And I think you’re forgetting that all this could be tested in open court, with appeal procedures to follow if necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/274 "2020-01-24T13:30:26Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Apparently his parents are rich and are causing a fuss hiring a top lawyer, and they want vengeance, wishing Sacoolas to go to prison for 14 years. Otherwise this would have died down. You’ve got to love someone who starts a claim with “apparently” then doesn’t bother to provide a single cite for their claims. This incident provoked enough outrage that the Dunn’s have received over $150,000 in donations to pursue legal action\* and try to get some form of justice. I can find no cite or article where they say they want her to go to prison for 14 years. As this is rather key to your claim that they’re after “vengeance” perhaps you could provide one. \*[Harry Dunn's family launch US campaign for extradition of Anne Sacoolas | The Independent | The Independent](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/harry-dunn-anne-sacoolas-extradite-car-crash-death-family-us-a9259551.html) ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/275 "2020-01-24T23:36:00Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > _Prison_? Nope, not even for them. Some _jail_ time for 2nd + offenders may be the right thing. > > But they did a \*deliberate \*act- got drunk and went driving, so some time in jail might be the right thing. What’s the difference between prison and jail in the US? ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/276 "2020-01-25T00:44:30Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > What’s the difference between prison and jail in the US? Prisons house those convicted of serious crimes (typically, crimes for which the maximum punishment exceeds a year) and are run by the state and federal governments. Jails are typically run by local governments (cities or counties) and house both pre-trial detainees and those who are serving short sentences for lower-level crimes. For example, a sentence of 30 days for drunk driving is likely to be served at the local jail; a sentence of five years for vehicular manslaughter would generally be served in state prison, possibly in a distant location. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/277 "2020-01-25T01:14:36Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > Prisons house those convicted of serious crimes (typically, crimes for which the maximum punishment exceeds a year) and are run by the state and federal governments. Jails are typically run by local governments (cities or counties) and house both pre-trial detainees and those who are serving short sentences for lower-level crimes. For example, a sentence of 30 days for drunk driving is likely to be served at the local jail; a sentence of five years for vehicular manslaughter would generally be served in state prison, possibly in a distant location. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Teddie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7ab992/32.png) [@Teddie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teddie)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/278 "2020-01-25T01:20:02Z")
As a Brit who has followed this case from the beginning I can only say I’m outraged that Anne Sacoolas is not going to face justice for this crime. Watching Harry‘s parents & his twin speak of their loss & anguish that this woman is not being brought to trial is reprehensible. It’s unconscionable that she’s being allowed to get away with this young mans death. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/279 "2020-01-25T08:37:31Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > You’ve got to love someone who starts a claim with “apparently” then doesn’t bother to provide a single cite for their claims. > > This incident provoked enough outrage that the Dunn’s have received over $150,000 in donations to pursue legal action\* and try to get some form of justice. I can find no cite or article where they say they want her to go to prison for 14 years. As this is rather key to your claim that they’re after “vengeance” perhaps you could provide one. > \*[Harry Dunn's family launch US campaign for extradition of Anne Sacoolas | The Independent | The Independent](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/harry-dunn-anne-sacoolas-extradite-car-crash-death-family-us-a9259551.html) Well, what do they want and what would be “justice”? Or do we really mean _revenge_? The UK courts have said it could be a 14 year prison sentence. Why do they want to punish this woman with prison time, even if it isnt for the full 14 years? Will that bring their son back? In America, she would not get\* any\* jail or prison time. Now, the UK wont extradite any capital criminals to the USA that may face the death penalty, since they dont like the DP. Fine. But then they have a barbarous and completely insane FOURTEEN year prison sentence for someone causing a death by accident. Kinda hypocritical. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/280 "2020-01-25T08:46:25Z")
> [@Teddie](#): > > As a Brit who has followed this case from the beginning I can only say I’m outraged that Anne Sacoolas is not going to face justice for this crime. > > Watching Harry‘s parents & his twin speak of their loss & anguish that this woman is not being brought to trial is reprehensible. > > It’s unconscionable that she’s being allowed to get away with this young mans death. What “justice” would you want? You do know that Diplomats get away with _real_ crimes all the time? Hundreds of times a year? Not just accidental deaths- but deliberate acts. Rape, murder, etc. The UK also uses Diplomatic Immunity so it’s pretty hypocritical of them to say otherwise. > **[Why dirty diplomats can literally get away with murder](https://nypost.com/2017/10/11/why-dirty-diplomats-can-literally-get-away-with-murder/)** > > It’s a sleazy scenario that plays out in bars and clubs across the Big Apple: Everybody’s having a great time until some creep just can’t keep his hands to himself. But early Sunday at Bar None — a… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400.md?page=15)