# US diplomat's wife kills UK teenager, claims diplomatic immunity **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 7, 2019, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400 "2019-10-07T07:38:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/301 "2020-01-26T15:28:33Z")
Are you saying that as a general rule it’s sufficient if a non-citizen of a country is permanently expelled from the country, no matter how major the crime they are accused of is? ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/302 "2020-01-26T15:37:18Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I feel like that’s the function of funerals, not trials. But yes, I can see how the family might want their son’s killer to suffer. Or might want their son’s killer to express remorse directly to them. > > But how about everyone else? They might want acknowledgment that their son is a human and he’ll be treated as such with rights not akin to an animal. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > I actually believe the UK legal system is superior to the US system, having seen both in some detail. That has nothing to do with my confusion. I honestly have no idea what benefit society gains by trying a woman who has already been expelled from that society. A judicial system is simply better at resolving possible criminal or civil matters than exile. How can the wronged continue without resolution? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/303 "2020-01-26T15:50:10Z")
Not quite. if the trial serves a purpose, I think it can be good to extradite the person. For instance, if she were accused of stealing a large amount of money it would be valuable to have a judgement against her stating that, because the judgement could potentially make it possible to recover the money and return it to the victims of theft. If she were accused of intentionally running down someone with her car, the US might want her tried and imprisoned, because she might be likely to do it again. And sometimes I think that punishment is excessive. One of the pizza places we used to go to closed suddenly, with no explanation. About a year later, we learned that the owner, a Greek citizen who had lived legally in the US with a “green card” for decades, had been convicted of drunk driving, and was deported back to Greece. I felt that was grossly excessive punishment, and he should have just suffered whatever the penalties a US citizen would have suffered for his crime. (Which would not have included losing the shop, nor being FOREVER excluded from living in the community.) But in this case, what is the benefit of the trial? 1. if she’s found guilty and punished, the family might appreciate that she was hurt, too. 2. if she’s found not-guilty, the family might be relieved to know that it couldn’t have been helped, and was just bad luck. 3. if she’s a decent human being, who is wracked with guilt for killing an innocent child, than either way, a trial might help her come to terms with what she’s done. Any accepting the punishment meted out to her might help her to move on. Not nothing, but not so great that it seems worth making an exception to the usual rules of diplomatic immunity. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/304 "2020-01-26T15:52:16Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > …How can the wronged continue without resolution? Unfortunately, there is resolution. The child is dead. That’s pretty damned resolved. And the child can’t continue, regardless of whether there’s a trial. I certainly hope the family can continue. But if they can’t, I would suggest a counselor before a court. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/305 "2020-01-26T15:54:59Z")
She likely would have gotten a suspended sentence and a driving prohibition. Is that really going to help the parents “continue on”? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/306 "2020-01-26T15:59:28Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > They might want acknowledgment that their son is a human and he’ll be treated as such with rights not akin to an animal… Seriously? No one would be deported for accidentally hitting an animal in the road. That’s not usually even a civil offense. Oh. And I wanted to expand on why I feel the UK judicial system is better than the US system. The UK system claims to look for the truth. The US system is adversarial, with each side trying for the best outcome for its side. My father was a prominent doctor and was sometimes asked to give expert testimony. Doing so it quite lucrative, by the way, there are people who make a tidy living doing it. But he would always tell the lawyer who approached him that he would look at the actual evidence and tell the court whatever he thought it indicated, whether or not that helped the lawyer’s client. So he was never hired. Except once, for a case in the UK. He told them that, and they replied, “that’s exactly what we want you to do”, and flew him first class to London to review the medical files, interview and examine the patient, and testify in court. I’m an actuary and work for a property/casualty insurance company. I am all too familiar with how the US courts work. I was quite impressed by that. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/307 "2020-01-26T16:06:45Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > She likely would have gotten a suspended sentence and a driving prohibition. Is that really going to help the parents “continue on”? I honestly think even that result (as meager as it sounds) would undoubtedly help if it was the result of a legal system. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/308 "2020-01-26T16:09:54Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Unfortunately, there is resolution. The child is dead. That’s pretty damned resolved. And the child can’t continue, regardless of whether there’s a trial. > > I certainly hope the family can continue. But if they can’t, I would suggest a counselor before a court. I should clarify, the purpose of the legal process here would not be to achieve resolution via resurrecting their child from the dead, but from defending his right to life (which was denied from him). Everyone knows he’s dead. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/309 "2020-01-26T16:13:52Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > I should clarify, the purpose of the legal process here would not be to achieve resolution via resurrecting their child from the dead, but from defending his right to life (which was denied from him). Everyone knows he’s dead. That makes even less sense than what I imagined, which was resolving the actual details of the incident so the grieving had an accurate view of what happened. What does that even mean, “defending his right to life”? He’s dead. A trial won’t bring him back. It won’t prevent anyone else from dying this way, either. And it’s not like there’s any doubt, in the local or international community, that it’s wrong to strike and kill a pedestrian with a car. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/310 "2020-01-26T16:14:33Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > So, you say it’s about justice. But i just don’t understand the demand that she stand trial. > > I see no allegation that she intended to kill anyone. > I see no allegation that she’s innocent of dangerous driving. > > She apparently fled to the US on the advice of her embassy, not because she chose to be sneaky or something. > She’s already been “sentenced” to a lifetime exile from the UK. She’ll never do it again. > > Who gains what from a trial? Who gains what from any trial? If nothing else, something closer to the truth than “apparently” speculations and suppositions based on US laws that don’t apply in this case anyway. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/311 "2020-01-26T16:16:27Z")
I might add that my Greek neighbor who was deported came to the US as a child, and barely spoke Greek. He had no “home” to return to. I felt that was cruel and unusual punishment for a common if serious crime. If he’d been a citizen he would have lost his license, and been sentenced to about a year in jail, and the sentence would probably have been suspended. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/312 "2020-01-26T16:17:12Z")
Who gains what from any trial? If nothing else, something closer to the truth than “apparently” speculations and suppositions based on US laws that don’t apply in this case anyway. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/313 "2020-01-26T16:19:00Z")
[quote=“puzzlegal, post:294, topic:841400”] Who gains what from any trial? If nothing else, something closer to the truth than “apparently” speculations and suppositions based on US laws that don’t apply in this case anyway. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/314 "2020-01-26T16:20:58Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > Who gains what from any trial? > > If nothing else, something closer to the truth than “apparently” speculations and suppositions based on US laws that don’t apply in this case anyway. In most many civil trials money changes hands, and the injured get compensation. That’s a gain. In criminal trials, a dangerous person is removed from the population for a period of time. Or gets a mark on his record to make it easier to remove him in the future. Those are gains. In theory he might be rehabilitated but the US frankly scores incredibly badly on that mark. In other criminal trials an innocent person is shown to be innocent, or at least freed from the charges. That’s a gain. In a lot of trials justice is miscarried and an innocent person is harmed. Often when the US imprisons a person they make it harder for him to rejoin society, and he learns how to better commit crime. Yeah, I’d like a lot fewer trials here, for lots of things. Perhaps that colors my thinking. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/315 "2020-01-26T16:22:18Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > That makes even less sense than what I imagined, which was resolving the actual details of the incident so the grieving had an accurate view of what happened. > > What does that even mean, “defending his right to life”? He’s dead. A trial won’t bring him back. It won’t prevent anyone else from dying this way, either. And it’s not like there’s any doubt, in the local or international community, that it’s wrong to strike and kill a pedestrian with a car. Lawyer dopers help me out here. IANAL so are there special legal incantations that I can repeat here to accurately convey 1. That everyone has a legal right to live. 2. That this person was denied that life. 3. That this event could be of interest to the UK judicial system. 4. Death of the victim isn’t a legal resolution. These are the four ideas of mine that I want to **puzzlegal** to understand. But there is a disconnect here. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/316 "2020-01-26T16:27:05Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > …US laws that don’t apply in this case anyway. > **[Manslaughter Sentencing in the UK | Lawtons Law](https://www.lawtonslaw.co.uk/resources/what-is-the-sentence-for-manslaughter-how-many-years-could-you-face-in-prison/)** > > Sentences for manslaughter offences vary significantly and depend on a number of factors. Here is everything you need to know about manslaughter sentencing in the UK. A quick google search suggests the laws around vehicular manslaughter aren’t very different between the UK and the US. The US has different laws in every state, but this sounds pretty typical. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/317 "2020-01-26T16:33:21Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Lawyer dopers help me out here. IANAL so are there special legal incantations that I can repeat here to accurately convey > > 1. That everyone has a legal right to live. > 2. That this person was denied that life. > 3. That this event could be of interest to the UK judicial system. > 4. Death of the victim isn’t a legal resolution. > > These are the four ideas of mine that I want to **puzzlegal** to understand. But there is a disconnect here. IANAL either but I have no idea what you’re talking about. No idea why you think invetigation of a traffic fatality would involve discussing someone’s right to live. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/318 "2020-01-26T16:35:08Z")
Do not people have a right to live? Am I completely out to lunch on this? Did I make this up? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/319 "2020-01-26T16:38:31Z")
It’s kind of a given that people have a right to life. What’s confusing is why you’re bringing it up. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/320 "2020-01-26T16:39:48Z")
Alright we’re getting somewhere. Is this person not dead? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400.md?page=17)