# US diplomat's wife kills UK teenager, claims diplomatic immunity **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 7, 2019, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400 "2019-10-07T07:38:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/21 "2019-10-07T13:00:54Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Enquiries? Is there any question about what happened? ‘Helping the Police with their enquiries’ is a turn of phrase, whilst the crime is being investigated and no one has yet been charged. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/22 "2019-10-07T13:11:10Z")
Given that she’s clearly a criminal suspect, hasn’t she already greatly exceeded her obligations in these “enquiries”? Even if she was a British citizen with roots predating the Norman conquest, presumably she would not have been obligated to help the police incriminate her. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/23 "2019-10-07T13:12:58Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > To my understanding, it doesn’t matter. As a matter of both US and UK law, her irresponsible actions are covered by immunity regardless of whether she travels back to the UK on her own. Since the UK is a party to the treaty that says she can’t be prosecuted for her actions, what exactly do you expect the UK to do if she did return? Violate its own laws in order to prosecute her? If she voluntarily, and as a private citizen, returned the UK then would diplomatic immunity still hold if she was not travelling on a diplomatic visa? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/24 "2019-10-07T13:19:32Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > LOL. Hyper-nationalists? Nation States rarely waive immunity. While your second statement is true - nation states rarely waive immunity - the first is _also_ true of the US at this time. The Trump administration is more hostile towards foreign nations _in general_ (rather than opposing specific nations) than I can remember the US being in a long, long time. That makes the current US government even less likely to waive immunity than would normally be the case. > [@madsircool](#): > > And if we had a full accounting of the swept under the rug crimes and misdemeanors committed by UK diplomats and family in the USA the outrage would dissipate quickly. Whataboutery and _tu quoque_ assertions will help no one and nothing in this instance. ALL countries have a history of misbehaving diplomat’s & family using and abusing diplomatic immunity to evade consequences for their actions. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > She’s not the diplomat though and she’s not on official business. Is she now not free to leave the country? Diplomatic immunity extends to the families of diplomats as well as the diplomats themselves. She has diplomatic immunity. She can’t remove it. Even if she did go to the UK as a “private citizen” she would STILL have diplomatic immunity whether she wants it or not and the US government is going to have a fit if the UK tries to prosecute her, perhaps even if they merely interview her or allow the police to interact with her and, the UK wanting to preserve its own diplomatic immunity privilege for its own diplomats and their families, are not going to allow that. Most likely, if she did arrive in the UK the UK authorities would just put her on an airplane going back to the US as soon as possible. However much Mr. Dunn’s family and/or the Northhampshire police want to pursue this, it is not in the best interest of the upper level UK government to allow it. > [@Jasmine](#): > > Waving immunity sets what would undoubtedly be a very uncomfortable precedent because a decision like that is purely subjective. “When”, “what”, and “how bad” become blurry lines. It also leaves open the possibility of foul play. For example, you are a diplomat in my country and, for some reason, I want to punish you or the nation you represent, I could simply trump up charges and demand to put you on trial. I don’t see how any diplomat could ever feel safe or protected again. … and that is WHY diplomatic immunity exists. It’s not for the benefit of those guilty of crimes, but rather for the much larger group that are innocent of wrong-doing. Which makes circumstances such as prompted this thread no less distressing. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/25 "2019-10-07T13:21:18Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > If she voluntarily, and as a private citizen, returned the UK then would diplomatic immunity still hold if she was not travelling on a diplomatic visa? Yes. _Only the government issuing diplomatic immunity can revoke it._ She can not shed diplomatic immunity on her own. She has it, whether or not she wants it. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/26 "2019-10-07T13:38:01Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Yes. > > _Only the government issuing diplomatic immunity can revoke it._ > > She can not shed diplomatic immunity on her own. She has it, whether or not she wants it. Which is actually a very important thing. Because let’s say China or Russia decide to round up one of our diplomats on some bogus charge, and then announce that TOTALLY VOLUNTARILY the diplomat was waived his own immunity for the serious charges he’s facing. Of course the privilege of immunity resides with the state. But as I stated before, the person had immunity at the time of the crime. Returning later doesn’t negate that immunity, unless she wants to commit another crime while visiting as a tourist. By the way, Britons shouldn’t be under the impression that this tragedy and the current stalemate is caused by American arrogance. About a year or so ago, a foreign student at a private school in DC stabbed another kid. Because the assailant was the child of a diplomat, nothing happened. I don’t think the nationality of the kid was ever revealed. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/27 "2019-10-07T14:10:59Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Which is actually a very important thing. Because let’s say China or Russia decide to round up one of our diplomats on some bogus charge, and then announce that TOTALLY VOLUNTARILY the diplomat was waived his own immunity for the serious charges he’s facing. Of course the privilege of immunity resides with the state. I think there is a world of difference between your scenario and a citizen choosing to revoke their immunity whilst safely in their own country and voluntarily travelling back to the country in question. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/28 "2019-10-07T14:15:16Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > By the way, Britons shouldn’t be under the impression that this tragedy and the current stalemate is caused by American arrogance. I don’t think anyone has suggested it nor even hinted at it. It isn’t the first such incident but it is the most recent, a boy is dead and the family are being told there is nothing we can do about it. From a point of view of simple human compassion those involved should be, and deserve to be, ashamed of themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/29 "2019-10-07T14:31:34Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I think there is a world of difference between your scenario and a citizen choosing to revoke their immunity whilst safely in their own country and voluntarily travelling back to the country in question. Can I ask where you get the idea that the woman can simply travel back on a tourist visa and face legal consequences for an act that is quite clearly covered by immunity? Is this something you have read about, or is this conjecture, or what? > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I don’t think anyone has suggested it nor even hinted at it. It isn’t the first such incident but it is the most recent, a boy is dead and the family are being told there is nothing we can do about it. From a point of view of simple human compassion those involved should be, and deserve to be, ashamed of themselves. I’m certainly not attributing that view to you, but yes, the idea of “American arrogance” has quite literally been raised, even on this message board: [Cite.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=883184) ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/30 "2019-10-07T14:49:33Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > Given that she’s clearly a criminal suspect, hasn’t she already greatly exceeded her obligations in these “enquiries”? Even if she was a British citizen with roots predating the Norman conquest, presumably she would not have been obligated to help the police incriminate her. Divided by a common language indeed. ‘Helping Police with their enquires’, doesn’t literally mean she’s there spoon-feeding them important information. It’s Police PR code for ‘been hauled in for questioning’. She could have sat in a Police interview in total silence for all we know. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/31 "2019-10-07T15:07:47Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > She could have sat in a Police interview in total silence for all we know. > [@](#): > > For all you know…? > **During the investigation, the American woman cooperated “fully” with police,** and even assured them “she had no plans to leave the country in the near future,” Northamptonshire Police Superintendent Sarah Johnson said in a statement Saturday. > **[A U.S. diplomat’s wife killed a British teen in a wrong-way collision, police...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/10/07/diplomat-wife-crash-harry-dunn-immunity/)** > > Boris Johnson said on Monday that Anne Sacoolas should return to the U.K. to face justice. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/32 "2019-10-07T15:09:11Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Can I ask where you get the idea that the woman can simply travel back on a tourist visa and face legal consequences for an act that is quite clearly covered by immunity? Is this something you have read about, or is this conjecture, or what? Is the crime or the person covered by immunity? How indeed can crime be covered by immunity without the implicit admission that a certain person of diplomatic association is guilty? If it is the person then I absolutely do think it should be permissible for that person to state their revocation of immunity and travel as a private citizen. If that was voluntary I don’t see how that would present a problem for existing diplomatic relationships. The concept didn’t spring out of nothing and isn’t immune to critical assessment. > [@](#): > > I’m certainly not attributing that view to you, but yes, the idea of “American arrogance” has quite literally been raised, even on this message board: [Cite.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=883184) but not in this thread, not in relation to this issue, so not sure why it was brought up. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/33 "2019-10-07T15:18:21Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Is the crime or the person covered by immunity? How indeed can crime be covered by immunity without the implicit admission that a certain person of diplomatic association is guilty? > > If it is the person then I absolutely do think it should be permissible for that person to state their revocation of immunity and travel as a private citizen. If that was voluntary I don’t see how that would present a problem for existing diplomatic relationships. The concept didn’t spring out of nothing and isn’t immune to critical assessment. Just to be clear – you admit that you are just speculating here? Drawing your own conclusions based on your limited understanding of the law in these areas? Even though it has been stated several times that immunity belongs to the state, not the individual? > [@](#): > > but not in this thread, not in relation to this issue, so not sure why it was brought up. Because it is relevant. Are you suggesting that I’m not allowed to discuss relevant issues unless you personally raise them first? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/34 "2019-10-07T15:29:55Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Just to be clear – you admit that you are just speculating here? Drawing your own conclusions based on your limited understanding of the law in these areas? Even though it has been stated several times that immunity belongs to the state, not the individual? You have a problem with me stating what I think \*should \*happen over what, \*does \*happen? I’m not trying to revoke an immutable physical law of the universe here. “speculation” is not the word I would use. I said. > [@](#): > > I absolutely do think it should be permissible for that person to state their revocation of immunity and travel as a private citizen. If that was voluntary I don’t see how that would present a problem for existing diplomatic relationships. The concept didn’t spring out of nothing and isn’t immune to critical assessment. Which is clearly a suggestion by me regarding what I think is a better way forward. It leaves the way open for the person in question to follow their conscience (or not) without compelling them to or damaging the concept of wider diplomatic privileges. I think it is a sound compromise. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/35 "2019-10-07T15:39:51Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Because it is relevant. Are you suggesting that I’m not allowed to discuss relevant issues unless you personally raise them first? I think previous incidents of that accusation would be relevant in this thread, _if there were similar accusations of arrogance in this thread._ There weren’t so not sure why it was raised. You are allowed to discuss whatever you like but I’m not sure that line was going to go anywhere seeing as no-one was asserting it ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/36 "2019-10-07T15:43:33Z")
> [@](#): > > You have a problem with me stating what I think should happen over what, does happen? I’m not trying to be argumentative, but your last few posts left it unclear to me whether you were suggesting a practical solution (that she return as a tourist in order to face prosecution) or suggesting a re-write to the treaty and laws that are in force (to allow a person to return to a country for prosecution). To me it sounded like the former, now I understand it’s the latter. Thank you for clearing that up. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/37 "2019-10-07T16:00:54Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I’m not trying to be argumentative, but your last few posts left it unclear to me whether you were suggesting a practical solution (that she return as a tourist in order to face prosecution) or suggesting a re-write to the treaty and laws that are in force (to allow a person to return to a country for prosecution). To me it sounded like the former, now I understand it’s the latter. Thank you for clearing that up. No problem, I thought your tone was rhetorical rather than the genuine question it was. So yes, I think my suggestion was just that, a practical improvement. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/38 "2019-10-07T16:01:28Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > It’s horrific, but what are you going to do? The treaties that prevent this woman from paying for her crime are the same treaties that prevent the Saudis from arresting her for going outdoors without a male escort. It’s a deeply imperfect system, but it’s better than the alternative. More to the point, it stops Trump or who from arresting the spouse of a diplomat purely as a retaliatory move. It’s not just about different laws, it’s about protecting people in pretty precarious situations. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/39 "2019-10-07T16:15:00Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > […] > Which is clearly a suggestion by me regarding what I think is a better way forward. It leaves the way open for the person in question to follow their conscience (or not) without compelling them to or damaging the concept of wider diplomatic privileges. I think it is a sound compromise. I’m sure the reason it doesn’t work that way is that it would be easy for a foreign government to hold sufficient leverage over a person to make them waive and travel back. The prosecuting government could say, e.g., go home, then waive and come back or we will lock up/execute all of your friends here. I do think waiver by the diplomat’s country should be considered for serious intentional crimes, and part of the consideration should be whether the justice system is one we consider fair, and specifically that the person will likely get a fair trial. (And not, for example, bear the brunt of disapproval of the administration, so that a jury might convict them out of bias, or to send a message.) ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/40 "2019-10-07T16:15:38Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > No problem, I thought your tone was rhetorical rather than the genuine question it was. > > So yes, I think my suggestion was just that, a practical improvement. Hmmm – now I’m confused again. There isn’t a practical end-run around the laws in place, because as stated, it is the decision of the US whether or not to waive immunity, and UK is equally bound to gain the waiver from the US before proceeding with a prosecution or whatever. As a question of whether the laws should be re-written to allow individuals to make a decision to return to face prosecution, I have a very hard time seeing that anyone would actually agree to that. Writing exceptions into a laws like this is actually quite complicated. For example, what would happen if this woman went on vacation in Japan next year? Since she would be a tourist on that trip, could the UK seek her arrest by Japanese authorities and subsequent extradition? Opening up exceptions to a strict rule is of course sometimes necessary, but its hard to see why many countries would sign up to a pretty substantial re-write to the custom of diplomatic immunity that has been around for many generations. Obviously, the easiest and correct thing to do would be for the US to waive immunity in this case. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400.md?page=3)