# US diplomat's wife kills UK teenager, claims diplomatic immunity **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 7, 2019, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400 "2019-10-07T07:38:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/381 "2020-01-28T15:11:50Z")
I doubt Raab is having fun talking to his US counterparts given the Huawei decision. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/382 "2020-01-28T15:14:05Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > ‘Legal’ is not the same thing as ‘due process of law’. > > ‘Due process’, or (if you prefer similar terms) ‘natural justice’, or ‘duty to act fairly’ requires a fair hearing before a court of law. Not an evasion of the normal judicial process. > > Diplomatic immunity is certainly fully legal, and enacted in law, and has been so for centuries, but it is a legal exception to due process. But there is an easy answer for that: responsible governments should waive the immunity in cases where the malfeasance was in the course of officials duties, and a fair trial can be expected. Adults acting like adults would solve this particular problem. Plus, let us remember that most places that diplomats serve are countries in which “due process of law” is nothing more than empty words, if it is spoken at all. Subjecting diplomats to the show trials of China and Russia is an unacceptable risk for people charged with trying to resolve difficult issues with those countries. Especially when those difficult issues could easily result in war, if handled poorly. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/383 "2020-01-28T17:16:13Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > … > > If you acknowledge that diplomatic immunity is part of the process then you also have to acknowledge so is waiving this in the event of a serious crime, just like the US asked Georgia to do with Makharadze. I think part of our disconnect is we have different ideas about the seriousness of the crime. The result of the crime was horrendous, of course. But the actual malfeasance was, imo, a cognitive glitch, or “brain fart” that you or I or most anyone could have fallen prey to. I don’t believe she acted with evil indifference. I think her brain failed to adapt to a novel circumstance (traffic being in the other side of the road.) Now, recognizing the problem, I have never driven a car in a country that drives in the wrong side of the road. But I’ve just been a tourist, and the cost of never driving was low. It’s not unreasonable for someone who had moved there to drive. Eventually. After they have learned which way to look for traffic. That’s why I suggested that the best outcome might be for the UK to impose a waiting period between arriving from a country where people drive the other way, and allowing newcomers to drive. Because THAT might reduce the number of future traffic deaths. Make newcomers get used to traffic as pedestrians, where the only life they risk is their own, before seeing them loose with a ton of steel. Punishing her (and others have said there punishment would likely be a suspended sentence and losing her driver’s license) is unlikely to make any difference in the risk of future deaths. And expelling her keeps her off the road. You feel some need for cosmic “justice”. I don’t. I just want orderly laws and fewer traffic deaths. Diplomatic immunity is a long-standing rule that does not significantly interfere with orderly laws. Fix the rules to reduce deaths, don’t punish people for the sake of punishment. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/384 "2020-01-28T17:20:04Z")
I think people are indeed being a little casual, equating what happened here with the Georgian diplomat. He got wasted, blew an intersection causing a three car accident, four injuries and a death. Is anyone here really saying that’s no more serious than driving on the wrong side of a country road and killing someone as they come over a hill? ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/385 "2020-01-28T17:57:42Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I think part of our disconnect is we have different ideas about the seriousness of the crime. The result of the crime was horrendous, of course. But the actual malfeasance was, imo, a cognitive glitch, or “brain fart” that you or I or most anyone could have fallen prey to. Try telling that to the cops if you ever go through a red light and cause an accident! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/386 "2020-01-28T18:37:23Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I think people are indeed being a little casual, equating what happened here with the Georgian diplomat. He got wasted, blew an intersection causing a three car accident, four injuries and a death. Is anyone here really saying that’s no more serious than driving on the wrong side of a country road and killing someone as they come over a hill? Georgian diplomat commits vehicular homicide. US government requests his immunity be waived so he can face due legal process, ascertaining whether he is guilty, and if so the extent of his culpability. US diplomat’s wife commits vehicular homicide. UK government requests her immunity be waived so she can face due legal process, ascertaining whether she is guilty, and if so the extent of her culpability. Not sure how you like to do things, but I usually prefer an actual court to determine what crime (if any) was committed, level of culpability, whether there were aggravating or extenuating circumstances. And as pointed out on a number of occasions, if the US decided that some ruling against her was outrageous we can’t enforce judgement without you giving a second waiver. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/387 "2020-01-28T18:46:45Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Fix the rules to reduce deaths, don’t punish people for the sake of punishment. Are you freaking kidding me? If someone shoots my son or daughter, whether with malice or through negligence, this country doesn’t react by taking away that person’s gun and saying, “Have a nice life! Problem solved!” Hell no, that person goes to prison. If someone burgles my house by smashing a window, the police don’t take the crowbar away and say, “We’ve done our job here! Let’s just move on!” Hell no, that person goes to prison. There’s no reason why someone who kills someone on the road – whether drunk driving, negligence, or whatever – should not face some kind of legal sanction beyond just not being permitted to drive again. What an offensive argument. Even the most bleeding of bleeding heart liberals must surely reject this “nobody should go to prison just because they killed someone for no good reason” line of thinking. ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/388 "2020-01-28T18:47:03Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > You know, I don’t understand the Christian concept that God needed to sacrifice his son because he was somehow unable to just forgive people for “original sin”, too. Couldn’t be simpler: God sacrificed Himself to Himself to save us from Himself. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/389 "2020-01-28T18:50:45Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Are you freaking kidding me? > > If someone shoots my son or daughter, whether with malice or through negligence, this country doesn’t react by taking away that person’s gun and saying, “Have a nice life! Problem solved!” Hell no, that person goes to prison. If someone burgles my house by smashing a window, the police don’t take the crowbar away and say, “We’ve done our job here! Let’s just move on!” Hell no, that person goes to prison. > > There’s no reason why someone who kills someone on the road – whether drunk driving, negligence, or whatever – should not face some kind of legal sanction beyond just not being permitted to drive again. > > What an offensive argument. Even the most bleeding of bleeding heart liberals must surely reject this “nobody should go to prison just because they killed someone for no good reason” line of thinking. of course motive and degree of negligence matter. I have a distant cousin who shot and killed his girlfriend whole cleaning his gun. Both her family and the police believed it was an accident. He did not suffer any criminal penalties. Even though he killed a person. He was more negligent than this driver, imo. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/390 "2020-01-28T18:58:51Z")
One difference is that competent authorities apparently investigated that tragic death, and I have no reason to disagree with their findings that it was a pure accident. In this case, I think that an investigation has been given short shrift, but to the extent that one has been conducted, it seems to be leaning toward an assumption that the driver acted with more negligence than you assume. But maybe that’s not the case – maybe she swerved to avoid another hazard, in which case she shouldn’t be punished. Maybe she was sleep deprived and shouldn’t have been on the road at all. That’s all stuff that should come out in an investigation, and if necessary a trial, where she can present a fair defense. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/391 "2020-01-28T19:36:22Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > Try telling that to the cops if you ever go through a red light and cause an accident! > > 😃 Well, the one time I was stopped for driving the wrong way on a one-way street, that’s pretty much what I said, and I was set loose with a stern warning. But in all seriousness, running a red light is a very different error than driving on the side of the street you have been trained to drive on. By the time you have been allowed to drive, you have been trained to stop at red lights. If you fail to do so, you either made a bad decision (you chose to run the light, you chose to look at your phone instead of the road) or you misjudged how the car handles – something else you should have been trained to do. Preventing yourself from doing something you have been trained to do is a different cognitive task, and one that you can fail at unexpectedly without making any obvious bad decisions. > [@Ravenman](#): > > One difference is that competent authorities apparently investigated that tragic death, and I have no reason to disagree with their findings that it was a pure accident. > > In this case, I think that an investigation has been given short shrift, but to the extent that one has been conducted, it seems to be leaning toward an assumption that the driver acted with more negligence than you assume. But maybe that’s not the case – maybe she swerved to avoid another hazard, in which case she shouldn’t be punished. Maybe she was sleep deprived and shouldn’t have been on the road at all. That’s all stuff that should come out in an investigation, and if necessary a trial, where she can present a fair defense. It was a pretty distant relative, but my understanding is that the DA chose not to charge him with anything. There’s tons of evidence of car crashes that is available to the authorities without a trial. If the evidence suggests the driver was drunk or something, I would think that would have been made public. (As it was in the cases cited about the US asking for diplomatic immunity to be waived when a drunk driver with several prior incidents killed some people in the US.) You don’t need a trial for that. Yes, I’m speculating, but this really looks like a case of exactly what it appears to be, a tragic mistake made by a driver who messed up when driving on the other side of the road from what she’d been trained to do. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/392 "2020-01-28T19:45:22Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > Try telling that to the cops if you ever go through a red light and cause an accident! > > 😃 I currently have cases in my office: Truck driver crossed center line, hit my client head on, killing him. No criminal charges Young driver pulls out in front of my client’s motorcycle, causing 3 months in hospital and life long injuries. No criminal charges Driver hits my client in a marked crosswalk, killing her. No criminal charges. (infraction for failing to yield right of way to pedestrian) Over the years, I’ve seen many, many cases likes these. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/393 "2020-01-28T19:54:34Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Are you freaking kidding me? > > If someone shoots my son or daughter, whether with malice or through negligence, this country doesn’t react by taking away that person’s gun and saying, “Have a nice life! Problem solved!” Hell no, that person goes to prison. If it’s negligent, then I’m pretty sure not only do you not go to jail, you get to keep your gun. > [@](#): > > If someone burgles my house by smashing a window, the police don’t take the crowbar away and say, “We’ve done our job here! Let’s just move on!” Hell no, that person goes to prison. Yeah, that’s completely different, because that’s an example of someone deliberately trying to break the law. > [@](#): > > There’s no reason why someone who kills someone on the road – whether drunk driving, negligence, or whatever – should not face some kind of legal sanction beyond just not being permitted to drive again. > > What an offensive argument. Even the most bleeding of bleeding heart liberals must surely reject this “nobody should go to prison just because they killed someone for no good reason” line of thinking. I’m pretty bleeding heart, and **puzzlegal** is making more sense than just about anyone in this thread. It was an accident. People shouldn’t go to jail because of an accident, except in pretty exceptional circumstances, and a moment of confusion while driving a car does not constitute “exceptional circumstances.” ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/394 "2020-01-28T19:56:59Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > I currently have cases in my office: > > Truck driver crossed center line, hit my client head on, killing him. No criminal charges > Young driver pulls out in front of my client’s motorcycle, causing 3 months in hospital and life long injuries. No criminal charges > Driver hits my client in a marked crosswalk, killing her. No criminal charges. (infraction for failing to yield right of way to pedestrian) > > Over the years, I’ve seen many, many cases likes these. Is there the thought from the state that this is best served in civil court by making the driver at fault pay out the ass to the victim as punishment? Of course that neglects the fact that the at-fault driver will never pay but at least in theory … ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/395 "2020-01-28T20:18:10Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Is there the thought from the state that this is best served in civil court by making the driver at fault pay out the ass to the victim as punishment? Of course that neglects the fact that the at-fault driver will never pay but at least in theory … I think it’s the distinction between negligence and recklessness. To prove vehicular assault (or homicide) the State has to prove reckless conduct. (which is defined as “willful or wanton disregard for the safety of persons or property.”) In a civil case, we only have to prove negligence. (Failing to act in a reasonable manner) > [@](#): > > (1) A person is guilty of vehicular assault if he or she operates or drives any vehicle: > (a) In a reckless manner and causes substantial bodily harm to another; or > (b) While under the influence of intoxicating liquor or any drug, as defined by RCW 46.61.502, and causes substantial bodily harm to another; or > (c) With disregard for the safety of others and causes substantial bodily harm to another. > (2) Vehicular assault is a class B felony punishable under chapter 9A.20 RCW. > (3) As used in this section, “substantial bodily harm” has the same meaning as in RCW 9A.04.110. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/396 "2020-01-28T20:24:46Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > People shouldn’t go to jail because of an accident, except in pretty exceptional circumstances, and a moment of confusion while driving a car does not constitute “exceptional circumstances.” I like a legal system where courts determine if there’s been a crime, and if so if jail is justified. You? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/397 "2020-01-28T20:45:27Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > I like a legal system where courts determine if there’s been a crime, and if so if jail is justified. You? Sure, but that’s not the argument I was responding to. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/398 "2020-01-28T21:24:54Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > I think it’s the distinction between negligence and recklessness. To prove vehicular assault (or homicide) the State has to prove reckless conduct. (which is defined as “willful or wanton disregard for the safety of persons or property.”) In a civil case, we only have to prove negligence. (Failing to act in a reasonable manner) Thank you for clearing up what I intended to say. Whether the driver’s conduct was negligent or reckless is a matter that authorities should adjudicate fairly; as opposed to various third parties on the internet reading the paper and deciding on her innocence or culpability. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/399 "2020-01-29T00:00:44Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Georgian diplomat commits vehicular homicide. US government requests his immunity be waived so he can face due legal process, ascertaining whether he is guilty, and if so the extent of his culpability. > > US diplomat’s wife commits vehicular homicide. UK government requests her immunity be waived so she can face due legal process, ascertaining whether she is guilty, and if so the extent of her culpability. You’re right. If you strip both stories of all detail, they are exactly the same. Then we can pretend a drunken joy ride in the middle of the city is the same as forgetting what side of the road you’re supposed to be on. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/400 "2020-01-29T00:08:52Z")
The Georgian diplomat probably just forgot he was supposed to be driving in the street instead of the sidewalk. Oopsies! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400.md?page=21)