# US diplomat's wife kills UK teenager, claims diplomatic immunity **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 7, 2019, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400 "2019-10-07T07:38:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/401 "2020-01-29T01:11:55Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I think part of our disconnect is we have different ideas about the seriousness of the crime. The result of the crime was horrendous, of course. But the actual malfeasance was, imo, a cognitive glitch, or “brain fart” that you or I or most anyone could have fallen prey to. I don’t believe she acted with evil indifference. I think her brain failed to adapt to a novel circumstance (traffic being in the other side of the road.) You clearly don’t understand some of the most universal tenets of the law, one of which is to uphold a sense of fairness. It is unfair to the families to have someone kill their son and leave without some sort of sanction against her. To do so reduces public confidence in their own criminal justice system to deliver just outcomes. Further still, hiding behind the cloak of diplomatic immunity casts doubt on the value of providing blanket legal protection for diplomats – that hurts not only people in the UK; that’s something that can affect our diplomats abroad as well. Diplomatic immunity exists for a reason, and it’s not to allow people to commit manslaughter and get away with it. Look, everyone gets that it was an accidents - that doesn’t mean jack shit. Accidents cause fatalities. Accidents that lead to fatalities are crimes. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > That’s why I suggested that the best outcome might be for the UK to impose a waiting period between arriving from a country where people drive the other way, and allowing newcomers to drive. Because THAT might reduce the number of future traffic deaths. Make newcomers get used to traffic as pedestrians, where the only life they risk is their own, before seeing them loose with a ton of steel. So the takeaway is that when an American can’t follow Britain’s rules, Britain should just change its rules. Christ, what an attitude. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/402 "2020-01-29T01:14:58Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Accidents cause fatalities. Accidents that lead to fatalities are crimes. Factually untrue. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/403 "2020-01-29T01:22:16Z")
So are those who are saying that the driver should not have her immunity waived also arguing that the UK justice system is unfair? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/404 "2020-01-29T02:15:43Z")
I certainly am not saying that. But screwing up local customs/rules is surely one of the things diplomatic immunity is meant to protect. We are not assuming that the conventions were meant with bad actors in mind, do we? The rules are only there to stop spiteful/political arrests? Or am I way off here? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/405 "2020-01-29T02:29:06Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Factually untrue. Accidents that lead to fatalities most absolutely can be crimes if the accident was caused by negligence. There are plenty of otherwise decent people who’ve spent time in prison for accidents. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/406 "2020-01-29T02:35:55Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Accidents that lead to fatalities most absolutely can be crimes if the accident was caused by negligence. There are plenty of otherwise decent people who’ve spent time in prison for accidents. Almost all “accidents” are caused by someone’s negligence. To be a crime (at least in Washington State, but I assume other places as well) more is required. Such as recklessness. Give me an hour in my office and I could probably pull 50 files where someone died due to someone else’s negligence and no crime was ever charged. [In many of these cases, it would have been appropriate to bring criminal charges, IMO.] Car accidents, boating accidents, plane crashes, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/407 "2020-01-29T02:39:06Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Accidents that lead to fatalities most absolutely can be crimes if the accident was caused by negligence. There are plenty of otherwise decent people who’ve spent time in prison for accidents. Some do, yes. It’s nowhere near as certain as you tried to present it. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/408 "2020-01-29T02:42:49Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Almost all “accidents” are caused by someone’s negligence. To be a crime (at least in Washington State, but I assume other places as well) more is required. Such as recklessness. > > Give me an hour in my office and I could probably pull 50 files where someone died due to someone else’s negligence and no crime was ever charged. [In many of these cases, it would have been appropriate to bring criminal charges, IMO.] Car accidents, boating accidents, plane crashes, etc. Right, like gross negligence, which is still an accident and still something that otherwise good people do, and still something that lands otherwise ‘good’ people in prison. The fact that they were never charged isn’t material; it’s that they can be charged but pragmatic decisions were made about how best to use the resources of the criminal justice system. Going back to the case in question, if this is just a case of an “accident,” an “oops,” then she shouldn’t have fled, right? She fled because she knew that her accident might led to a criminal conviction. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/409 "2020-01-29T02:45:13Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I certainly am not saying that. But screwing up local customs/rules is surely one of the things diplomatic immunity is meant to protect. Cite? And if it really is an innocent mistake, and the UK justice system is fair, then shouldn’t it turn out okay? > [@](#): > > We are not assuming that the conventions were meant with bad actors in mind, do we? The rules are only there to stop spiteful/political arrests? Or am I way off here? Of course the proactive recognizes that there will be bad actors. That’s why diplomats are expelled and sometimes sending parties waive immunity. Heck, it’s why the waiver exists at all. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/410 "2020-01-29T02:48:17Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Some do, yes. It’s nowhere near as certain as you tried to present it. I wasn’t trying to present anything as ‘certain’. I’m fully aware that accidental death doesn’t automatically lead to a 100% chance of criminal conviction. I was trying to point out that the fact it doesn’t necessarily matter that Ann Sacoolas’ made a mistake – a mistake that leads to death is going to lead to a criminal investigation, and in some cases, criminal convictions. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/411 "2020-01-29T02:51:22Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > You clearly don’t understand some of the most universal tenets of the law, one of which is to uphold a sense of fairness. It is unfair to the families to have someone kill their son and leave without some sort of sanction against her. To do so reduces public confidence in their own criminal justice system to deliver just outcomes. … Here in America, you can often kill a person in a road accident and not have to go to prison. In a few areas maybe a short stint in jail. Now, of course the _civil liability_ would be huge. So, usually, in America, in a accident of thise sort- no drunk driving, etc- the sanction would be a lawsuit, and only that. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/412 "2020-01-29T03:03:12Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Cite? No. If you think he diplomatic immunity rules were made up with the assumption of bd acting governments, you cite it. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/413 "2020-01-29T05:37:51Z")
Don’t even need a cite, really. I’m sure nations being hostile to each other was the big consideration. But I am sure “misunderstandings” were a consideration. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/414 "2020-01-29T06:21:19Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > If the evidence suggests the driver was drunk or something, I would think that would have been made public. (As it was in the cases cited about the US asking for diplomatic immunity to be waived when a drunk driver with several prior incidents killed some people in the US.) You don’t need a trial for that. Yes, I’m speculating, but this really looks like a case of exactly what it appears to be, a tragic mistake made by a driver who messed up when driving on the other side of the road from what she’d been trained to do. We have rather tougher rules than you do about publicly airing what might be relevant evidence before a trial, so as to avoid prejudicing a case one way or the other. You do “need a trial for that”, because that is what a trial is for. And until there is one, whatever anyone may think from what has been reported in the media is indeed speculation. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/415 "2020-01-29T06:55:26Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > We have rather tougher rules than you do about publicly airing what might be relevant evidence before a trial, so as to avoid prejudicing a case one way or the other. You do “need a trial for that”, because that is what a trial is for. > > And until there is one, whatever anyone may think from what has been reported in the media is indeed speculation. But she was breathalized that evening, according to wiki, and we see she wasn’t charged with an alcohol related offence. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/416 "2020-01-29T08:53:40Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Here in America, you can often kill a person in a road accident and not have to go to prison. In a few areas maybe a short stint in jail. Now, of course the _civil liability_ would be huge. > > So, usually, in America, in a accident of thise sort- no drunk driving, etc- the sanction would be a lawsuit, and only that. This didn’t happen in America. This happened in a country with one of the safest (and yet most congested) road systems in the world. The reason they are the safest is because we hold driving up to a high standard - our driving tests is extremely hard to pass, our rules are expected to be followed. Here, driving is seen as a privilege, not a right. You are expected to drive with ‘due care and attention’ - a higher level of awareness than a mere pedestrian. Driving on the wrong side of the road, accident or not, is at minimum a clear sign of driving without due care and attention, and that is an offence. [From the RAC:](https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/legal/driving-without-due-care-and-attention/) > [@](#): > > The offence of driving without due care and attention – also referred to as careless driving – covers a multitude of motoring sins, from tailgating to tuning the radio. > Defined in law as “allowing the standard of driving to fall below that of a competent and careful driver”, it carries a CD10 endorsement code, which can be issued against your driving licence. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/417 "2020-01-29T09:15:56Z")
Anne Sacoolas got a traffic ticket for “failing to pay full time and attention” while driving in Virginia in 2006. She paid a $97 fine. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/418 "2020-01-29T11:01:08Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > But she was breathalized that evening, according to wiki, and we see she wasn’t charged with an alcohol related offence. Then let’s just have trial by wiki, shall we? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/419 "2020-01-29T11:52:40Z")
Nm ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/420 "2020-01-29T14:22:54Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > Then let’s just have trial by wiki, shall we? The CPS filed charges, those are public. Are you saying a lack of any alcohol related charges is an abundance of discretion? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400.md?page=22)