# US diplomat's wife kills UK teenager, claims diplomatic immunity **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 7, 2019, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400 "2019-10-07T07:38:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/481 "2020-01-31T17:01:11Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > Prosecutors in the UK do not “demand” any sentence. That’s entirely up to the judge, in the light of the sentencing guidelines in relation to the evidence heard and proven in court. Counsel for both sides can argue as to which of the various criteria in the sentencing guidelines are appropriate for the circumstances proven in evidence: they can’t just pluck a figure out of the air, nor is public opinion a factor recognised in the sentencing guidelines. Whether or not the maximum might apply in this case depends on the evidence proven in court and what arguments can be made about the relevant criteria: none of which can be known until the case is heard in court, not based on suppositious speculation. > [https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/about-sentencing/information-for-victims/what-happens-at-a-sentencing-hearing/](https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/about-sentencing/information-for-victims/what-happens-at-a-sentencing-hearing/) In theory, in the USA, public opinion is not supposed to be a factor recognized in the sentencing guidelines. But it is anyway. And yes, just like in the USA Judge set the sentence, but the Prosecution will request a sentence. A media circus like this one will certainly effect the trial and sentencing. It’s not supposed to- _but it will._ Here or there. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/482 "2020-01-31T17:05:07Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I am not sure what has prompted to much anger, resulting in accusations of dishonesty, stupidity, and malice, but it stops here. The next such accusation will result in a Warning and being banned from this thread. Just lay out your arguments without any reference to personality or the traits of the posts to which you are responding. > > This includes everyone, although DrDeth and Ravenman are especially noted for their contributions, here. > > [/Moderating] I just saw this, and he makes a point. So I am going to stop posting here, You all have fun now, hear? ---
**Author:** ![Teuton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/teuton/32/3864_2.png) [@Teuton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teuton)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/483 "2020-01-31T17:16:10Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > She authorised Northamptonshire Police to charge Anne Sacoolas with causing death by dangerous driving. I imagine that’s routine following a traffic death. It’s not. You can be also be charged with [Causing Death by careless or inconsiderate driving](https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/magistrates-court/item/causing-death-by-careless-or-inconsiderate-driving/) if the CPS thinks that is appropriate, or if an investigation finds it’s purely an accident, no charges may be brought at all. Obviously, the CPS doesn’t find that to be the case in this instance. There is also, I note, [Causing death by careless driving when under the influence of drink or drugs, etc](https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/crown-court/item/causing-death-by-careless-driving-when-under-the-influence-of-drink-or-drugs-etc/) ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/484 "2020-01-31T17:44:18Z")
> [@Teuton](#): > > It’s not. You can be also be charged with [Causing Death by careless or inconsiderate driving](https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/magistrates-court/item/causing-death-by-careless-or-inconsiderate-driving/) if the CPS thinks that is appropriate, or if an investigation finds it’s purely an accident, no charges may be brought at all. Obviously, the CPS doesn’t find that to be the case in this instance. > > There is also, I note, [Causing death by careless driving when under the influence of drink or drugs, etc](https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/crown-court/item/causing-death-by-careless-driving-when-under-the-influence-of-drink-or-drugs-etc/) Huh, I was assured earlier by GreenWyvern that no such existed and the charge laid included Drink Driving offenses. Strange. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/485 "2020-01-31T18:17:15Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Huh, I was assured earlier by GreenWyvern that no such existed and the charge laid included Drink Driving offenses. Strange. I certainly didn’t say that the charge doesn’t exist. I said that the guidelines are that it’s not necessary to charge that offence in addition to causing death by dangerous driving. That was the point we were discussing. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/486 "2020-01-31T19:47:15Z")
I think we can assume alcohol wasn’t involved now, at least not over the legal level. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/487 "2020-02-01T01:19:12Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > I certainly didn’t say that the charge doesn’t exist. > > I said that the guidelines are that it’s not necessary to charge that offence in addition to causing death by dangerous driving. That was the point we were discussing. Ok, I just realized we misunderstood each other in the last exchange. I was saying that in Canada she would have been charged with driving over the legal limit as well as dangerous driving causing death. I was not saying they’d be charged with two different vehicular homicide crimes. That’s why I said “the lesser charge would have been included”. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/488 "2020-02-01T05:35:20Z")
I think we’re still misunderstanding each other. > [@CarnalK](#): > > I was saying that in Canada she would have been charged with driving over the legal limit as well as dangerous driving causing death. In the UK that doesn’t seem to be the case. There would be no separate charge of driving while intoxicated, because that is included as an aggravating factor in the charge of causing death by dangerous driving, and it affects sentencing. For the record, I think it’s unlikely she was drunk, but there may be other aggravating factors, such as texting on a mobile phone, or taking medication that causes drowsiness. It’s significant that she was charged with the more serious offence of ‘causing death by dangerous driving’, rather than ‘causing death by careless driving’. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/489 "2020-02-01T05:36:42Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > That’s a new record, folks, as we go from “tragic death” to “crime apparently this minor” in just 11 words. If that crime were any more minor, Harry Dunn would still be alive… There doesn’t have to be a crime at all for a person to die in an auto accident. A moose can run in front of a car, and kill the driver. A tree can fall on a vehicle. I once saw a large traffic sign blown down by the wind and hit a car (thankfully, no one was injured. But they certainly could have been.) Yes, I think both that the death was tragic, and also that the actual crime was modest. I don’t believe there is any contradiction between those two. I don’t think it minimizes the horror of a boy being killed to observe that the woman who killed him was confused, not malicious. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/490 "2020-02-01T05:56:51Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > There doesn’t have to be a crime at all for a person to die in an auto accident. If there wasn’t liability, then no charge would have been laid. The fact that the more serious charge of ‘causing death by dangerous driving’ has been laid suggests that there is more to it than mere absentmindedness. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > I don’t think it minimizes the horror of a boy being killed to observe that the woman who killed him was confused, not malicious. You still seem to be imagining that you know all the facts of the case. You don’t. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/491 "2020-02-01T05:57:35Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I don’t think it minimizes the horror of a boy being killed to observe that the woman who killed him was confused, not malicious. The point at issue is what degree of culpability is involved in that confusion. Determining that depends upon the evidence being heard and challenged in the proper court. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/492 "2020-02-01T08:00:57Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > There doesn’t have to be a crime at all for a person to die in an auto accident. A moose can run in front of a car, and kill the driver. A tree can fall on a vehicle. I once saw a large traffic sign blown down by the wind and hit a car (thankfully, no one was injured. But they certainly could have been.) > > . And yet none of these unavoidable things happened. An avoidable death happened because a driver wasn’t paying sufficient attention to handling a lethal weapon. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/493 "2020-02-01T10:23:10Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > There doesn’t have to be a crime at all for a person to die in an auto accident. A moose can run in front of a car, and kill the driver. A tree can fall on a vehicle. I once saw a large traffic sign blown down by the wind and hit a car (thankfully, no one was injured. But they certainly could have been.) > > Yes, I think both that the death was tragic, and also that the actual crime was modest. I don’t believe there is any contradiction between those two. I don’t think it minimizes the horror of a boy being killed to observe that the woman who killed him was confused, not malicious. The first statement is correct. Imagine the same collision, but with Harry Dunn on the wrong side of the road and Sacoolas driving correctly and safely. There would have been no arrest and no charges. No one, not even the Dunns, is suggesting that she was “malicious”. If she had not been in a collision but was just spotted on the wrong side of the road by a passing cop, she would have probably have suffered nothing but a telling off and a reminder that we do things differently over here. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2020, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/494 "2020-02-03T20:27:03Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > What am I gonna look up ? The fact that a media circus makes a fair trial impossible? Well, yes. I know you flounced off earlier, but I have to call this out. Are you saying nobody can ever get a fair trial when there’s a media circus? Should we have let OJ go since there was no way to get an impartial jury? ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2020, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/495 "2020-02-09T20:58:06Z")
> [@](#): > > The family of a British teenager killed when his motorbike was struck by a car driven by a US diplomat’s wife have demanded to know whether the UK was told she was an alleged former CIA officer, and if this gave her extra protection from extradition. > > Charlotte Charles, the mother of Harry Dunn – who died in August in a crash near the Northamptonshire airbase where Anne Sacoolas’s husband worked as an intelligence officer – said the family were furious after hearing of Sacoolas’s alleged past. > **[Harry Dunn's family seek answers over reports Anne Sacoolas was CIA officer](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/feb/09/anne-sacoolas-cia-officer-government-comment-harry-dunn)** > > Family want to know if claimed CIA link played part in US rejecting extradition request ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2020, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/496 "2020-02-12T23:36:57Z")
I don’t understand. Why does it matter that she used to have a job at CIA? How does that make anything worse? ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2020, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/497 "2020-02-13T05:04:48Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > I don’t understand. Why does it matter that she used to have a job at CIA? How does that make anything worse? Saying that “she used to have a job at the CIA” distorts the situation. It makes it sound like she was a secretary there, or something. She almost certainly _is_ (not was) a senior CIA agent, and more senior than her husband. ([Mail article](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7982191/Fugitive-American-wife-Anne-Sacoolas-wanted-death-Harry-Dunn-CIA-spy.html)) Also, even though she had only been in the UK for 3 weeks on this particular visit, she had previously worked in the UK for two years up to 2017, presumably as a CIA agent. But on this occasion, she was not officially notified to the UK government as a CIA agent. Her status was as 'a spouse with no official role’ – but ‘senior Whitehall figures have confirmed they knew of her CIA history’. The reason she was allowed to leave the country so easily was that she was a CIA agent, and the reason the US won’t allow her to be extradited is that she’s a CIA agent. Perhaps she has a license to kill. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2020, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/498 "2020-02-13T15:46:29Z")
I’m pretty sure she didn’t have a license to kill random teenagers. And if that’s true, I bet her boss is really angry that she blew her role like that. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2020, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/499 "2020-02-14T03:23:52Z")
If she lived in the UK for two years, the argument that she was “new to driving in the UK and probably confused” is shot to hell. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2020, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/500 "2020-02-14T04:19:12Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > If she lived in the UK for two years, the argument that she was “new to driving in the UK and probably confused” is shot to hell. Oh, good point. I missed that. Yeah, WTF? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400.md?page=26)