# US diplomat's wife kills UK teenager, claims diplomatic immunity **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 7, 2019, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400 "2019-10-07T07:38:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Fentoine\_Lum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b77776/32.png) [@Fentoine\_Lum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fentoine_Lum)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/41 "2019-10-07T16:43:03Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Generally, as I understand it, the US doesn’t waive immunity even in clear-cut cases like this, as a matter of principle. So odds are slim she’ll be extradited. We are an exceptional people after all, why we kill across the planet, this is just what we do. ---
**Author:** ![Fentoine\_Lum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b77776/32.png) [@Fentoine\_Lum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fentoine_Lum)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/42 "2019-10-07T16:45:21Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Hmmm – now I’m confused again. There isn’t a practical end-run around the laws in place, because as stated, it is the decision of the US whether or not to waive immunity, and UK is equally bound to gain the waiver from the US before proceeding with a prosecution or whatever. > > As a question of whether the laws should be re-written to allow individuals to make a decision to return to face prosecution, I have a very hard time seeing that anyone would actually agree to that. Writing exceptions into a laws like this is actually quite complicated. For example, what would happen if this woman went on vacation in Japan next year? Since she would be a tourist on that trip, could the UK seek her arrest by Japanese authorities and subsequent extradition? > > Opening up exceptions to a strict rule is of course sometimes necessary, but its hard to see why many countries would sign up to a pretty substantial re-write to the custom of diplomatic immunity that has been around for many generations. > > Obviously, the easiest and correct thing to do would be for the US to waive immunity in this case. Yes, but we don’t even deal with/call out/prosecute our own war criminals but rather recycle them back into governmental positions and TV punditry to push for ever more war across the globe. ---
**Author:** ![Fentoine\_Lum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b77776/32.png) [@Fentoine\_Lum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fentoine_Lum)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/43 "2019-10-07T16:50:57Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > It is my understanding that the US government could, indeed, forbid that. > If she’s the family member of a diplomat my (perhaps flawed) understanding is that yes, the US government could do that. Having a diplomat’s family member tried in a foreign court against the wishes of the US is not a precedent the US wants to have set. (To be fair, no nation wants that precedent set, that’s the whole point behind diplomatic immunity in the first place). All the US government has to do is mutter about “national security” or “national interests” and all hands are tied. > > Now - will the US government do that? No way to know. Prior administrations might have waive immunity in such a case where the guilty party wants to cooperate with foreign law enforcement but it’s always the government’s call. Doing so has some precedent, but requires _both_ governments to agree with waiver of immunity prior to any legal investigation or proceedings to go forward. > > With the current administration? Who the hell knows? My gut feeling is that no, immunity will not be waived in this or any other case while we have hyper-nationalists in charge. > > I’m sorry - a young man has died, I don’t think his family is going to get any sort of closure, and it’s a double shame in that the woman in question seemed willing to cooperate with the Northhampshire police. Then the US government got involved and recalled her back to the US. "(perhaps flawed)? Definitely gaslighting. We can’t even ID our own corruption any more. “With the current administration? Who the hell knows?” Oh its bound to come out against this sort of thing taking a principled stand against kleptocracy and kakistocracy. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/44 "2019-10-07T16:56:10Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > While criminal, none of those examples are crimes resulting in death. Look deeper. You’ll find a bunch of assaults, rapes, intoxication manslaughter offenses—hell, maybe even a murder or two—committed by diplomats in NYC and DC. Vast majority are PNG’d back to their home country. It looks like the US diplomat’s wife just cut out the middleman, and PNG’d herself. Horrible thing for the victim’s family in the UK. Perhaps the US could provide some form of compensation to his family? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/45 "2019-10-07T16:58:14Z")
> [@Fentoine\_Lum](#): > > We are an exceptional people after all, why we kill across the planet, this is just what we do. > [@Fentoine\_Lum](#): > > Yes, but we don’t even deal with/call out/prosecute our own war criminals but rather recycle them back into governmental positions and TV punditry to push for ever more war across the globe. > [@Fentoine\_Lum](#): > > "(perhaps flawed)? Definitely gaslighting. We can’t even ID our own corruption any more. > > “With the current administration? Who the hell knows?” > > Oh its bound to come out against this sort of thing taking a principled stand against kleptocracy and kakistocracy. All of your posts in this thread have been off topic, and seemingly steering towards what seems to be your preferred topic. You’re welcome to discuss that, in an appropriate thread. This is not that thread. Do no post in this thread again. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![mandala](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mandala/32/95_2.png) [@mandala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mandala)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/46 "2019-10-07T17:00:07Z")
The US does not waive diplomatic immunity even in cases of [cold-blooded murder](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Allen_Davis_incident), so it is extremely unlikely this incident will be prosecuted. After all, it was apparently only an accident. ---
**Author:** ![Fentoine\_Lum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b77776/32.png) [@Fentoine\_Lum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fentoine_Lum)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/47 "2019-10-07T17:01:47Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > All of your posts in this thread have been off topic, and seemingly steering towards what seems to be your preferred topic. You’re welcome to discuss that, in an appropriate thread. This is not that thread. > > Do no post in this thread again. > > [/moderating] You see no connection at all? Really? Or you just really need to get what I’m saying offa your little “discussion” board here. Straight Dope? Really? And anyway, here’s the full post you can’t handle: > [@](#): > > “(perhaps flawed)”? Definitely gaslighting. We can’t even ID our own corruption any more. > [@](#): > > “With the current administration? Who the hell knows?” Oh its bound to come out against this sort of thing taking a principled stand against kleptocracy and kakistocracy, don’t you think? > [@](#): > > “All the US government has to do is mutter about “national security” or “national interests” and all hands are tied.” We the people’s hands are never tied unless we refuse to challenge authority with all of our fweedumb. Just as the ruling aristocracy gets away with Jeffie Epstein’s pimping to its penchant for pedophilia, so can they skate on this as we do nothing but watch and post and feel oh so sorry someone died; here, have some thoughts and prayers. La dee dah, another day in america. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/48 "2019-10-07T17:01:56Z")
> [@mandala](#): > > The US does not waive diplomatic immunity even in cases of [cold-blooded murder](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Allen_Davis_incident), so it is extremely unlikely this incident will be prosecuted. After all, it was apparently only an accident. Calling that one murder is a gigantic stretch. At least you linked to the wiki describing the attempted robbery. ---
**Author:** ![mandala](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mandala/32/95_2.png) [@mandala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mandala)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/49 "2019-10-07T17:04:59Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Calling that one murder is a gigantic stretch. At least you linked to the wiki describing the attempted robbery. > [@](#): > > According to the investigative officers, when Davis fired at Faizan and Faheem, they were sitting on their bike in front of his car with their backs towards Davis.[29] Davis shot them through his windshield. After the shooting, Davis is alleged to have exited his car to take pictures and videos of the casualties with his cell phone.[30] There are additional reports that Davis shot five rounds through his windshield, got out of his vehicle and shot four more rounds into the two men as they lay on the pavement.[31] The police report notes that both witnesses and Davis reported that Davis fired from behind Haider as Haider was running away. Sounds like murder to me. ---
**Author:** ![Fentoine\_Lum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b77776/32.png) [@Fentoine\_Lum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fentoine_Lum)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/50 "2019-10-07T17:05:29Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Calling that one murder is a gigantic stretch. At least you linked to the wiki describing the attempted robbery. It would be murder here, would it not? Depending of course upon one’s race and socioeconomic status. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/51 "2019-10-07T17:27:49Z")
> [@mandala](#): > > Sounds like murder to me. Stopping an attempted armed robbery is murder now? I mean, I shouldn’t be surprised that it’s a viewpoint here. Anything to show some equivalency between US diplomats and the criminal foreign diplomats I mentioned up-thread. I don’t read where the other motorcyclist attempted to give himself up, merely that he ran away. Or as I think Davis viewed it, “retreating to a better firing position.” Anchor shooting them was poor form then, though conceivably OK these days, if he felt it was a bombing attack against him, and not a mere robbery. It’s a bad example of diplomatic immunity anyway, as Davis was held by the authorities, and released only after paying the relevant penalty. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/52 "2019-10-07T17:36:23Z")
> [@Fentoine\_Lum](#): > > You see no connection at all? Really? Or you just really need to get what I’m saying offa your little “discussion” board here. Straight Dope? Really? > [@Fentoine\_Lum](#): > > It would be murder here, would it not? Depending of course upon one’s race and socioeconomic status. This is a warning for failure to follow a moderator’s instructions. The previous instruction remains in effect. I recommend you do not continue to violate the rules of this board. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/53 "2019-10-07T17:44:18Z")
> [@mandala](#): > > The US does not waive diplomatic immunity even in cases of [cold-blooded murder](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Allen_Davis_incident), so it is extremely unlikely this incident will be prosecuted. After all, it was apparently only an accident. Accident? Driving on the wrong side of the road is classed as ‘Dangerous driving’, a serious criminal offence. You can’t just drive on the wrong side of the road and go ‘oops’ when you kill someone because of it. Dangerous driving is not an accident, it’s a deliberate or reckless act. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/54 "2019-10-07T20:16:39Z")
She should face the penalty. After all it is only $87.50 [per person killed](https://nypost.com/2002/09/02/brodericks-guilt-actor-to-meet-with-irish-kin-of-fatal-87-car-wreck/). ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/55 "2019-10-07T20:28:54Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > Accident? Driving on the wrong side of the road is classed as ‘Dangerous driving’, a serious criminal offence. You can’t just drive on the wrong side of the road and go ‘oops’ when you kill someone because of it. Dangerous driving is not an accident, it’s a deliberate or reckless act. Well, that, or an outcome of fatigue and living in a country where they drive on a different side of the road than you spent the last few decades driving on. That sort of wrong-side driving happens sometimes to Brits driving in drive-on-the-right countries, too. I don’t know the exact circumstances of this accident so I can’t say if that was a factor or not in this particular case. Nor does it _excuse_ anything. It’s still wrong. The difference is in the motivation: carelessness, not deliberate malice. I think most of us would argue there should still be penalties, but we might allow some mitigation of the penalties assessed, particularly if the guilty party were cooperative with the legal process. Unfortunately, this seems to be a case where no matter how much the guilty party wants to cooperate other factors (international diplomacy and powerful governments) would prevent that. Even so - it never hurts to _ask_ for immunity of this sort to be waived. For all we know the woman is doing that even as we speak. Or maybe not - we have no way to know. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/56 "2019-10-07T20:42:10Z")
> [@eschrodinger](#): > > I’m sure the reason it doesn’t work that way is that it would be easy for a foreign government to hold sufficient leverage over a person to make them waive and travel back. The prosecuting government could say, e.g., go home, then waive and come back or we will lock up/execute all of your friends here. A fair, and depressing, point to make. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/57 "2019-10-07T21:25:48Z")
There really should be some mechanism whereby the UK can apply for judicial extradition in the same way that any other US citizen can be extradited,. It would then be for the UK to provide evidence that would satisfy the US courts that this would be appropriate. We don’t know the full facts of the case, why did she do a runner having already been interviewed? I wonder if there is any possibility that she was drunk driving or under the influence of drugs because it seems one heck of an oversight on her part to forgetfully drive on the wrong side of the road - methinks there is more to this than meets the eye and that’s why she has gone on the run. The alternative is for her to be brought before US courts and prosecuted there, we already do this for certain crimes across international jurisdictions - such as for crimes against humanity. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/58 "2019-10-07T21:30:43Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > This getting any airplay in the US? Because it’s even knocked Brexit off the national news here. [Chief Constable of Police demands suspect’s return to the UK (BBC Link)](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-49952294) > > Reports say she was driving for some distance on the wrong side of the road. The victim came over the brow of a hill and so had no opportunity to avoid her car. > > So, she has claimed diplomatic immunity and scuttled off home, which of course she can. But should the US do _something_? Send her back? Prosecute her at home? Give compensation to the victim’s family? Stick two fingers up to them? > > For reference, sentencing guidelines for causing death by dangerous driving (and I’m no lawyer), are: Its weird cause everyone has been calling her the diplomatic wife. She has some connection with the state department, but hubby is a contractor on an airforce base. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/59 "2019-10-07T21:41:46Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > Its weird cause everyone has been calling her the diplomatic wife. She has some connection with the state department, but hubby is a contractor on an airforce base. RAF Croughton is a major comms hub. A “contractor” at a location like that - well who knows what their real job is. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2019, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/60 "2019-10-08T05:50:19Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > Accident? Driving on the wrong side of the road is classed as ‘Dangerous driving’, a serious criminal offence. You can’t just drive on the wrong side of the road and go ‘oops’ when you kill someone because of it. Dangerous driving is not an accident, it’s a deliberate or reckless act. A negative consequence of recklessness or negligence is an accident. I suppose it _could_ have been a deliberate act, in which case it wasn’t an accident, but that seems pretty unlikely. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400.md?page=4)