# US Dopers - does the world's antipathy to Bush make you like him more? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 4, 2003, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-does-the-worlds-antipathy-to-bush-make-you-like-him-more/179560 "2003-06-04T11:44:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-does-the-worlds-antipathy-to-bush-make-you-like-him-more/179560/81 "2003-06-05T16:54:18Z")
Are those poll ratings for the United States and its people, or for the United States _government_? I don’t see any difficulty with having very different views of each. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-does-the-worlds-antipathy-to-bush-make-you-like-him-more/179560/82 "2003-06-05T17:03:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SnoopyFan \* > I have a life to lead over here, I could care less if someone in some tiny town in France or any other country thinks the President is a boogerhead. That’s why you’ll never work as a diplomat. And one of the fundamental duties of the President of the United States is _diplomacy._ Hint, hint. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-does-the-worlds-antipathy-to-bush-make-you-like-him-more/179560/83 "2003-06-05T18:17:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ammo52 \* > **…It’s no surprise that he’s “suddenly” being demonized around the world – but the lion’s share of that scorn comes with the territory of being the face attached to the world’s only superpower. If France were the dominant political, military, and economic force in the world, does anyone doubt for a second that Jacques Chirac would be the world’s most reviled man?..** I’m sorry but I just don’t buy that. Bill Clinton was also “the face attached to the world’s only superpower” and IIRC he was well liked internationally (and domestically). > [@](#): > > \*\*All countries act – and should act – primarily in their own self-interest. It’s just a hell of a lot more visible when we do it than when Zimbabwe does. \ \*\* But doesn’t international opinion count at all in that self-interest? Surely it can’t be in our self-interest to be disliked by most of the world? ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-does-the-worlds-antipathy-to-bush-make-you-like-him-more/179560/84 "2003-06-05T18:37:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DrNick \* > \*\*He is, clearly, spectacularly loathed abroad. Even my most right-wing friends in this country have little good to say about him, and even before the whole war on terror thing kicked off this was the case. > > However, he appears to have quite a cachet in your country, and I was wondering if this had anything to do with (presumably) well-publicised fact that ‘we’ all think he’s rubbish. A bit like when a stranger starts insulting a cousin of yours that you dislike yourself, but you’re damned if you’re going to let an outsider say it. > > [Conversely, I’m under the impression that Clinton was rather unpopular domestically, yet internationally he was very popular] \*\* One thing you have to remember is that because of the 2-party system, the U.S. is extremely polarized politically. Although Bush enjoys a lot of support here, I think those who dislike him REALLY dislike him. So for most Democrats, the fact that the rest of the world hates Bush makes us hate him _more_, if anything. And the converse goes for Clinton. While there was a very vocal contingent who were against him, he was actually quite popular among a lot of Americans. Remember that he was re-elected. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-does-the-worlds-antipathy-to-bush-make-you-like-him-more/179560/85 "2003-06-05T18:50:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > \*\*Are those poll ratings for the United States and its people, or for the United States _government_? I don’t see any difficulty with having very different views of each. \*\* As the links show, these polls deal with favorable views of the United States of America. Pew has cited views of Bush as having a considerable influence on the outcome of the most recent survey, and media reports (as well as a number of posters in this thread) suggest that dislike of Bush is dragging down America’s approval ratings. Certainly it is hard to imagine that non-Americans are vacillating so widely in their views of America strictly on their perceptions of the “United States and its people”. My point is that if one is going to argue that attitudes toward Bush influence negative perceptions of the U.S. (a reasonable theory), one must also recognize that these recent, significant increases in favorable views of the U.S. likely reflect opinions about our national policies, and are part of the ongoing referendum on the Bush Administration. Translation: “Everybody Hates Bush” is a simplistic and incorrect statement. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-does-the-worlds-antipathy-to-bush-make-you-like-him-more/179560/86 "2003-06-05T19:00:43Z")
Perhaps. I’d put more credence in polls that ask the question about the Bush administration specifically if I were trying to assess public opinion about the Bush administration specifically, though. Certainly it’s true that “everyone” doesn’t hate, or love, Bush or anyone else, though, as you say. **blowero** ’s point about party polarization in the US misses the large size of the disaffected/nonparticipative faction that forms the balance of power when motivated to do so. The polarization of the parties is not, IMHO, reflective of the basic moderation of the people. ---
**Author:** ![i\_like\_bacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/54ee81/32.png) [@i\_like\_bacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/i_like_bacon)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-does-the-worlds-antipathy-to-bush-make-you-like-him-more/179560/87 "2003-06-05T20:59:33Z")
I didn’t vote for Governor Bush either, not because of world opinion, but because his policies didn’t agree with my own opinions. I still dislike the man for those same reasons. I was not in favor of the war in Iraq, but i will say, if the UN had been full score behind the US it may have altered my opinion. There were times just before the war, when i felt like I would probably fit in better living in Europe. On another note, American’s have long been criticized for our seeming ignorance about all things not American. Originally posted by IzzyR And to stress one point - it is highly likely that Europeans are far more knowledgeable about other European countries than Americans are about these countries. A valid comparison would be US vs. European knowledge of Third world or Asian countries. Or US knowledge about Europe vs. European knowledge about the US. (sorry i haven’t figured out how to do the quote thing) Ask the average American something about our closest neighbors Canada or Mexico. Its alarming and embarressing how ignorant we really are. ---
**Author:** ![Quack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e99b99/32.png) [@Quack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quack)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-does-the-worlds-antipathy-to-bush-make-you-like-him-more/179560/88 "2003-06-05T21:10:28Z")
I just don’t like Bush. Personally, who gives a hoot? But his administration has been for shit. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-does-the-worlds-antipathy-to-bush-make-you-like-him-more/179560/89 "2003-06-05T21:26:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > **blowero** ’s point about party polarization in the US misses the large size of the disaffected/nonparticipative faction that forms the balance of power when motivated to do so. The polarization of the parties is not, IMHO, reflective of the basic moderation of the people. Well, I’d argue with you, but I have no idea what you’re trying to say.😕 ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-does-the-worlds-antipathy-to-bush-make-you-like-him-more/179560/90 "2003-06-05T23:15:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by i like bacon \* > \*\*Ask the average American something about our closest neighbors Canada or Mexico. \*\* Hey, one of them’s south, right?\*\* > [@](#): > > _Its_ alarming and embarr_e_ssing how ignorant we really are. \*\* You betcha. ---
**Author:** ![SnoopyFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d07c76/32.png) [@SnoopyFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnoopyFan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-does-the-worlds-antipathy-to-bush-make-you-like-him-more/179560/91 "2003-06-06T03:12:27Z")
**And one of the fundamental duties of the President of the United States is diplomacy. Hint, hint.** Absolutely. But since when is “diplomacy” defined as letting the UN lead you around by your dick? ---
**Author:** ![Kempis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kempis/32/19248_2.png) [@Kempis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kempis)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-does-the-worlds-antipathy-to-bush-make-you-like-him-more/179560/92 "2003-06-06T05:46:07Z")
It’s probably simplistic, but I’ve been under the impression that Europeans are more favorable of socialism and communism than Americans are. Therefore when a President is in power whose party (supposedly) represents the idea of small government and less socialism he would not be given the benefit of the doubt on just about anything. The the average person in America and Europe has access to favorable and unfavorable information about famous people, so he would choose the unfavorable more often in Bush’s case, and the favorable more often in the case of Bill Clinton. And no, you can’t convince me that Clinton was right-winger after raising taxes and trying to privatize heath care in America. What I can’t understand is European’s favor for a Democrat like Clinton when the American Jewish vote is predominantly Democrat. I thought Europeans still hated Jews to no end, even after killing most of the local ones 60 years ago. -k ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-does-the-worlds-antipathy-to-bush-make-you-like-him-more/179560/93 "2003-06-06T06:47:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SnoopyFan \* > But since when is “diplomacy” defined as letting the UN lead you around by your dick? Since we signed all that paperwork saying that we’d abide by the charters and bylaws and whatnots when we first joined? And since you seem to be so indignant when people are being “led around” against their will, were you protesting earlier this year when George W. Bush was trying to jerk the UN around and have them rubber-stamp his war? ---
**Author:** ![SnoopyFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d07c76/32.png) [@SnoopyFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnoopyFan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-does-the-worlds-antipathy-to-bush-make-you-like-him-more/179560/94 "2003-06-06T06:50:40Z")
**were you protesting earlier this year when George W. Bush was trying to jerk the UN around and have them rubber-stamp his war?** Yep. I think Bush should have told the UN to fuck off a long time ago. He shouldn’t have even bothered trying to get their approval. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-does-the-worlds-antipathy-to-bush-make-you-like-him-more/179560/95 "2003-06-06T08:24:05Z")
> [@](#): > > ## \*Originally posted by rjung \* quote: > > ## Originally posted by SnoopyFan But since when is “diplomacy” defined as letting the UN lead you around by your dick? > > Since we signed all that paperwork saying that we’d abide by the charters and bylaws and whatnots when we first joined? Touche.😃 ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-does-the-worlds-antipathy-to-bush-make-you-like-him-more/179560/96 "2003-06-06T09:21:56Z")
My dear **Kempis** : “probably simplistic” is a significant understatement. Your assertions might perhaps be described as “woefully ill-informed and slightly offensive”. As has been said, we tend not to give that much of a shit about what the US government does in the US - obviously, we tend to sympathise with people suffering in the US, as in other countries, but small government, large government, whether the POTUS wants to “privatize” medicine (I think you meant “nationalize”…), or tax rebates - not really our concern. But we do give a shit about US foreign policy, and that’s what we dislike about your administration. > [@](#): > > **What I can’t understand is European’s favor for a Democrat like Clinton when the American Jewish vote is predominantly Democrat. I thought Europeans still hated Jews to no end, even after killing most of the local ones 60 years ago.** :rolleyes: This nonsense doesn’t even deserve clarification. **Jackmanii** - as I have already stated, there are no stats about Bush’s (as opposed to the US’s) popularity overseas available. You are welcome to continue living in denial about how the administration is viewed outside the US, or you can take on board the very large amount of anecdotal evidence that the non-US dopers are giving you, and perhaps speculate that, while not “everyone” outside the US dislikes Bush (there were two Aussies in the IMHO poll, which is currently running at 49:2 against), **DrNick’s** statement “spectacularly unpopular” is indeed a given. To be honest, I’m incredulous that you are even trying to say it isn’t true. ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-does-the-worlds-antipathy-to-bush-make-you-like-him-more/179560/97 "2003-06-06T09:51:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by adaher \* > \*\* (About Chomsky - S.N.) I’ve been told by his fans that he gets a lot of TV time in Europe and his books are frequently best-sellers. Over here he gets very little of either. He’s considered a crank by most people in the US. > > So is Limbaugh, by the way. \*\* I’d guess that Limbaugh would be a completely unknown entity to 95% of Europeans. As for Chomsky, he enjoys a bit of a reputation in some academic circles and he gets the occasional opinion piece published in the more intellectual newspapers. I’ve never heard about a best-selling book of his, and as for him getting lots of TV time, that has to be in camparison with other linguistics professors. I’m in no doubt that Limbaugh has a much larger (proportionate)audience in the US than Chomsky will ever get in Europe. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-does-the-worlds-antipathy-to-bush-make-you-like-him-more/179560/98 "2003-06-06T10:19:43Z")
I believe that. But the US true believers of Chomsky would have me think that he’s a major political pundit in Europe. As for his accomplishments in linguisitics, he’s taken very seriously in that respect. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-does-the-worlds-antipathy-to-bush-make-you-like-him-more/179560/99 "2003-06-06T12:32:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kempis \* > \*\* > > What I can’t understand is European’s favor for a Democrat like Clinton when the American Jewish vote is predominantly Democrat. I thought Europeans still hated Jews to no end, even after killing most of the local ones 60 years ago. > > -k \*\* \*\* Kempis\*\* --as an “Old SD Hand” who has put his foot in his own mouth many a time, I offer you, a relative newbie, some advice. You should apologize to the EuroDopers. I mean this in the kindest way possible. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-does-the-worlds-antipathy-to-bush-make-you-like-him-more/179560/100 "2003-06-06T12:36:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > \*\ ***Jackmanii** - as I have already stated, there are no stats about Bush’s (as opposed to the US’s) popularity overseas available. You are welcome to continue living in denial about how the administration is viewed outside the US, or you can take on board the very large amount of anecdotal evidence that the non-US dopers are giving you, and perhaps speculate that, while not “everyone” outside the US dislikes Bush (there were two Aussies in the IMHO poll, which is currently running at 49:2 against), **DrNick’s** statement “spectacularly unpopular” is indeed a given. To be honest, I’m incredulous that you are even trying to say it isn’t true. \*\* I have a hard time believing that you put such credence in a tiny sampling off the Internet (a notoriously inaccurate way of gauging opinion), rather than a scientific poll of 16,000 people conducted by the Pew Research Center. If you would like to explain how the large postwar swing in foreign opinion towards positive views of the U.S. jibes with Bush being “spectacularly unpopular” abroad, have at it. I will grant you that it is highly likely that foreign leftists and intellectuals, as a group, loathe Bush to a high degree. To say that such folk are representative of the population as a whole runs counter to the evidence that we’ve been presented with so far. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-does-the-worlds-antipathy-to-bush-make-you-like-him-more/179560.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-does-the-worlds-antipathy-to-bush-make-you-like-him-more/179560.md?page=6)