# US Dopers, would you go to a restaurant that charged higher prices but discouraged tipping? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 4, 2010, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-would-you-go-to-a-restaurant-that-charged-higher-prices-but-discouraged-tipping/531261 "2010-03-04T10:32:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2010, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-would-you-go-to-a-restaurant-that-charged-higher-prices-but-discouraged-tipping/531261/21 "2010-03-05T16:36:09Z")
I voted for _Other things being equal, I’d prefer it but it doesn’t bother me_. I’ve never been a waitress of food, only a cocktail waitress at a casino. Tips were out of this world and I’ve never made as much money as I did then\*, but I certainly never expected a tip. Having said that, I realize this is different than serving food. Still, the more I read websites and books from the waitstaff perspective (I’m currently reading Waiter Rant) the more I want to never tip a penny more than 20%. As much as the waitstaff complains about customers, I think you’d find very few that would be happy with even the scenario described in the OP - - Seriously, it was crazy money. I paid for my post graduate studies, my very nice apartment and entertainment, clothes, vacations, and put a big ol fat deposit down on a house. I make pretty good money now and I still made more on average then. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2010, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-would-you-go-to-a-restaurant-that-charged-higher-prices-but-discouraged-tipping/531261/22 "2010-03-05T17:10:38Z")
> [@Gary\_T](#): > > I’d be happy to try the place out and judge it on its merits. I do not, however, have an axe to grind one way or the other about our tipping system to where I’d choose (or avoid) such a place just because of its tipless pricing setup. This is pretty much my answer. I’d be interested to see if the service turned out to be better or worse than at a restaurant set up under the regular system (and I suspect it could go either way). But it doesn’t really matter to me whether I pay $10 for a meal + $2 tip or $12 + $0 tip, as long as the waitstaff gets fairly compensated. The present system has the advantage of tying (albeit imperfectly) a waiter’s earnings to how hard he/she works, not just the amount of hours he/she puts in. If I were a waiter, I’d hate working crazy busy days (like Mothers Day or Valentines Day) if I was just earning an hourly wage—but if it meant I’d be making more in tips… ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2010, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-would-you-go-to-a-restaurant-that-charged-higher-prices-but-discouraged-tipping/531261/23 "2010-03-05T17:19:41Z")
I think the problem with going to fixed pricing (no tips) in the USA is that since people are so used to tipping, then someone will start to leave “a little something extra” and soon enough we’re back into a tipping cycle because people feel guilty about not tipping. ---
**Author:** ![MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2010, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-would-you-go-to-a-restaurant-that-charged-higher-prices-but-discouraged-tipping/531261/24 "2010-03-05T19:16:59Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > I will, at times leave a small tip if I feel the service has been “above and beyond” - other than that, forget it. Is this how you behave when visiting America, even knowing full well our tipping system, and how tips here are the vast majority of a server/bartenders total pay? In other words, when you are here in the US, do you not tip, just to show your distain for a social constraint you don’t care for? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2010, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-would-you-go-to-a-restaurant-that-charged-higher-prices-but-discouraged-tipping/531261/25 "2010-03-05T19:27:52Z")
> [@CutterJohn](#): > > Thats known as doing your job. Don’t get me wrong.. I’ve got nothing against incentive based pay, but lots of people manage to do a good job without it, in a wide variety of hectic situations, many far more harrying than those faced by your average waitress. Saying the restaurant business would die it is just silly. Exactly. Any group home/rest home/home care worker does a hell of a lot more work for a hell of a lot less money. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2010, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-would-you-go-to-a-restaurant-that-charged-higher-prices-but-discouraged-tipping/531261/26 "2010-03-05T20:59:43Z")
The only motivation, that I can think of, that a group of restaurants would have to put this paractice into place, is if waitstaff were in short supply. The restaurant group needed to insure a higher wage to attract qualified waitstaff to work in its restaurants. Since there is ample supply of waitstaff willing to work for tips, there is currently no need for this type of arrangement. Your proposition has no foundation. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2010, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-would-you-go-to-a-restaurant-that-charged-higher-prices-but-discouraged-tipping/531261/27 "2010-03-05T21:12:15Z")
> [@Wilbo523](#): > > The only motivation, that I can think of, that a group of restaurants would have to put this paractice into place, is if waitstaff were in short supply. The restaurant group needed to insure a higher wage to attract qualified waitstaff to work in its restaurants. > > Since there is ample supply of waitstaff willing to work for tips, there is currently no need for this type of arrangement. > > Your proposition has no foundation. Another incentive would be for the IRS to crack down on all the tax avoidance that tipping generates. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2010, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-would-you-go-to-a-restaurant-that-charged-higher-prices-but-discouraged-tipping/531261/28 "2010-03-05T22:42:24Z")
Here’s one thing to consider: Meal at regular restaurant: $100 Tax @ 8%: $8 Tip @15%: $16.2 Total cost of the meal: $124.2 Meal at the non-tipping restaurant (100 x 1.15): $115 Tax @ 8%: $9.2 Total cost of the meal: $124.2 Exactly same cost to me, but look what happened. In the first scenario the server earned $16.20. In the second, if we assume that the server gets a “fair wage” of that total 15% markup. That’s $15. You magically converted $1.20 from the server’s tip into extra taxes. Or perhaps the server earns the full 15% markup of $115, or $16.20. In that case, the restaurant is serving what would be the $100 meal at the tipping restaurant but only collecting $98.80 and it’s the one losing $1.20. Either way, someone’s not going to be happy with this process. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2010, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-would-you-go-to-a-restaurant-that-charged-higher-prices-but-discouraged-tipping/531261/29 "2010-03-05T23:52:21Z")
Like the OP I am a Brit, but have lived in the US for 15 years. At first, I didn’t like the tipping culture in America but I have come to like it. It didn’t take long to realize that restaurant service is generally better in America, and I think that tipping is a significant factor in that. ---
**Author:** ![put\_down\_the\_sabre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/da6949/32.png) [@put\_down\_the\_sabre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/put_down_the_sabre)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2010, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-would-you-go-to-a-restaurant-that-charged-higher-prices-but-discouraged-tipping/531261/30 "2010-03-06T00:32:01Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > Like the OP I am a Brit, but have lived in the US for 15 years. At first, I didn’t like the tipping culture in America but I have come to like it. It didn’t take long to realize that restaurant service is generally better in America, and I think that tipping is a significant factor in that. But doesn’t it bother you the way they (in lower-end places, at least) hover, checking ‘if everything is ok’? pdts ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2010, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-would-you-go-to-a-restaurant-that-charged-higher-prices-but-discouraged-tipping/531261/31 "2010-03-06T00:40:15Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > …It didn’t take long to realize that restaurant service is generally better in America… Interesting. In what sort of ways? I’ve sometimes heard, as a gross generalization, that restaurant wait staffs (staves?) in the US tend to be less experienced and less professional than across the pond. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2010, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-would-you-go-to-a-restaurant-that-charged-higher-prices-but-discouraged-tipping/531261/32 "2010-03-06T00:49:10Z")
I don’t really see the benefit to me of going to such a restaurant. If I would have tipped 15% otherwise, I don’t save any money by going to this restaurant. If I would have tipped less, I’m spending more at the restaurant than I normally would. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2010, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-would-you-go-to-a-restaurant-that-charged-higher-prices-but-discouraged-tipping/531261/33 "2010-03-06T02:31:41Z")
> [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](#): > > Is this how you behave when visiting America, even knowing full well our tipping system, and how tips here are the vast majority of a server/bartenders total pay? > > In other words, when you are here in the US, do you not tip, just to show your distain for a social constraint you don’t care for? No. This is how I behave here. If I were in the US eating, naturally I would tip. As a tourist it is not up to me to tell you what works and what doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![put\_down\_the\_sabre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/da6949/32.png) [@put\_down\_the\_sabre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/put_down_the_sabre)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2010, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-would-you-go-to-a-restaurant-that-charged-higher-prices-but-discouraged-tipping/531261/34 "2010-03-06T03:15:23Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I don’t really see the benefit to me of going to such a restaurant. If I would have tipped 15% otherwise, I don’t save any money by going to this restaurant. If I would have tipped less, I’m spending more at the restaurant than I normally would. The benefit is that you get to eat in a restaurant freed of the social anxiety and awfulness of the tipping system. You can just enjoy your meal-- you don’t need all the social/emotional stuff tied up with the fact that, to earn a living wage, your waiter/ess needs you to make a technically voluntary but expected donation. You might not feel uncomfortable in the tipping situation; many people, especially from outside the US, do. pdts ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2010, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-would-you-go-to-a-restaurant-that-charged-higher-prices-but-discouraged-tipping/531261/35 "2010-03-06T04:24:47Z")
> [@put\_down\_the\_sabre](#): > > But doesn’t it bother you the way they (in lower-end places, at least) hover, checking ‘if everything is ok’? Only if they ask before I have even had time to take a bite. It’s better than avoiding the customers, like happens in England. There I get fed up sitting waiting to pay my bill and often end up going to find someone. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2010, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-would-you-go-to-a-restaurant-that-charged-higher-prices-but-discouraged-tipping/531261/36 "2010-03-06T04:28:56Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Interesting. In what sort of ways? I’ve sometimes heard, as a gross generalization, that restaurant wait staffs (staves?) in the US tend to be less experienced and less professional than across the pond. Friendlier, more outgoing, apparently taking pleasure in serving you (even if they are faking it). More willing to try help you out if there is a problem or you want something a bit different. I have not noticed English restaurant staff being more professional generally, and I have eaten in low-end to very high-end in both countries. The differences I comment on in my first paragraph apply to low/middle-range. High-end servers are usually very professional in both countries. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2010, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-would-you-go-to-a-restaurant-that-charged-higher-prices-but-discouraged-tipping/531261/37 "2010-03-06T05:29:24Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > Here’s one thing to consider: > > \ Er… I’m pretty sure that tips are payments for services and thus should be taxed at 8% anyway (an American can confirm or deny this). It sounds like your argument boils down to “tipping is good because it makes tax evasion easier”. ---
**Author:** ![Annie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/858c86/32.png) [@Annie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2010, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-would-you-go-to-a-restaurant-that-charged-higher-prices-but-discouraged-tipping/531261/38 "2010-03-06T07:55:02Z")
A point of interest: in BC, all restaurant/service workers get paid at least [minumum wage ($8 here).](http://www.labour.gov.bc.ca/esb/facshts/restaurant_emp.htm#) Tipping is still customarily 15-20%. But if someone cheaps out, at least the server gets a base rate. Does everyone think that if the establishment charged the gratuity to the bill, that the full gratuity would really be passed on to the staff? I hear enough tales of employers not passing on the tips left via credit card to the servers (and bussers, kitchen minions and whoever else can make a claim on the two bucks left on the table) to doubt that all restaurateurs will forward the 15% to the paychecks. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2010, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-would-you-go-to-a-restaurant-that-charged-higher-prices-but-discouraged-tipping/531261/39 "2010-03-06T08:09:36Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > Like the OP I am a Brit, but have lived in the US for 15 years. At first, I didn’t like the tipping culture in America but I have come to like it. It didn’t take long to realize that restaurant service is generally better in America, and I think that tipping is a significant factor in that. Not my experience at all. I’ve lived for extended periods (2+ years) in Australia, the UK, Canada, and the US, and i’ve had plenty of good service and plenty of shitty service in all those places. I’ve worked as a server in Australia, the UK, and Canada, and from the other side of the table it never seemed to me that waiters and other servers in places with tipping were any better at their jobs, on average. I worked with some truly lazy fucks in Canada, and with some outstanding workers. Same in Australia and the UK. I’m with **Una** on the whole issue of waiters who still expect to be tipped even when an automatic gratuity is added to the bill. It annoys the fuck out of me. Even those who don’t actively hint about extra tipping will often make no effort to highlight on the bill where the tip has already been included, in the hope that you will forget and add a(nother) tip. And because tipping is such a part of dining, this often does happen. Any place that adds an automatic tip should place on the check, in big red letters, “Gratuity of 18% already included.” ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2010, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-would-you-go-to-a-restaurant-that-charged-higher-prices-but-discouraged-tipping/531261/40 "2010-03-06T13:16:46Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Er… I’m pretty sure that tips are payments for services and thus should be taxed at 8% anyway (an American can confirm or deny this). It sounds like your argument boils down to “tipping is good because it makes tax evasion easier”. It is determined by state, but usually sales taxes are not paid on services. I have also generally seen tip recommendations based on the pre-tax total, although in practice I suspect that is not the case. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-would-you-go-to-a-restaurant-that-charged-higher-prices-but-discouraged-tipping/531261.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-dopers-would-you-go-to-a-restaurant-that-charged-higher-prices-but-discouraged-tipping/531261.md?page=3)