# US embassy to Vatican City **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 26, 2020, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-embassy-to-vatican-city/850355 "2020-03-26T19:49:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2020, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-embassy-to-vatican-city/850355/1 "2020-03-26T19:49:02Z")
Newt Gingrich was on The View this morning. His wife is the US Ambassador to the Vatican, and he was calling in from Rome. He said that, during the Italian lockdown, his wife was still running the Embassy. Is there a US Embassy to the Vatican? An entire infrastructure dedicated to US relations with the Vatican? Is it a distinct entity from the US Embassy to Italy? ---
**Author:** ![Misnomer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/misnomer/32/14897_2.png) [@Misnomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Misnomer)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2020, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-embassy-to-vatican-city/850355/2 "2020-03-26T19:56:01Z")
Yes, yes, and yes. > **[Embassy of the United States to the Holy See](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embassy_of_the_United_States_to_the_Holy_See)** > > The Embassy of the United States of America to the Holy See (or Embassy Vatican for short) is the diplomatic mission of United States of America to the Holy See, a term referring to the central government and universal reach of the Roman Catholic Church. > The current embassy moved to new headquarters in September 2015 in a separate building on the same compound as the United States Embassy Rome. The embassy was previously located on Aventine Hill in the Villa Domiziana in Rome, Italy, which was ... [https://va.usembassy.gov/](https://va.usembassy.gov/) ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2020, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-embassy-to-vatican-city/850355/3 "2020-03-26T19:59:26Z")
Note that it’s distinct organizationally, but shares a building with the US Embassy to Italy, and the US Mission to the UN Agencies in Rome. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2020, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-embassy-to-vatican-city/850355/4 "2020-03-26T20:02:22Z")
> [@Misnomer](#): > > Yes, yes, and yes. > > [Embassy of the United States to the Holy See - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embassy_of_the_United_States_to_the_Holy_See) > > [https://va.usembassy.gov/](https://va.usembassy.gov/) Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2020, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-embassy-to-vatican-city/850355/5 "2020-03-26T20:14:05Z")
FWIW, the Vatican embassy is located as part of the US “Tri-Mission” embassy, i.e. the US Embassy to Italy and the US Embassy to the UN Agencies in Rome (there are several UN Agencies headquartered in Rome - World Food Programme, Food and Agriculture Organization and International Fund for Agricultural Development) and the US Embassy to the Vatican all share the same facility. It’s a distinct entity in the sense of having a separate ambassador and probably a small staff dedicated to them, but I suspect for the most part, they glom onto the larger US Embassy to Italy for most things. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2020, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-embassy-to-vatican-city/850355/6 "2020-03-26T22:35:49Z")
It appears that there are six people at this embassy: [https://va.usembassy.gov/embassy/holy-see/key-officers/](https://va.usembassy.gov/embassy/holy-see/key-officers/) ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-embassy-to-vatican-city/850355/7 "2020-03-27T04:26:42Z")
In case it’s over some people’s heads, the Vatican is a separate country. It’s the remnant of the Papal States that controlled much of Italy, and had its own army… thus answering Stalin’s question - “How many divisions does the pope have?” Once upon a time, lots. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-embassy-to-vatican-city/850355/8 "2020-03-27T06:01:32Z")
He never really had lots of divisions. Militarily, the Papal States were never what you would call a world power. Or even a regional power. And, strictly speaking, the US ambassador (and the ambassadors of many other countries) are not Ambassadors to “Vatican City”, the state created by treaty with Italy in 1929; they are ambassadors to the Holy See, an internationally-recognised organisation that predates the Vatican City State by many centuries. Does this matter? Yeah, in this sense: if you’re asking yourself why the US or any other country would accredit an ambassador to the Holy See, the answer is not going to have anything to do with territory (of the Vatican City State) or divisions or any of the characteristics that might influence a decision about accrediting an ambassador to a country; it’ll be about the role, reach and influence of the Holy See as an internationally significant organisation. ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-embassy-to-vatican-city/850355/9 "2020-03-27T12:27:27Z")
One point to note is that it is only relatively recently that some of the major non-Roman Catholic countries have sent full ambassadors to the Holy See. The UK has done so only since 1982, the USA since 1984, Russia since 2010. Before then they used officials with lesser titles or didn’t have diplomatic relations at all. The Vatican refuses to recognise ambassadors to the Holy See who are also the ambassador to Italy and it isn’t hugely keen on the current trend for countries to house the two embassies in the same building. [Lots of countries get round that by combining it with their embassy to another European country, often Switzerland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_diplomatic_missions_to_the_Holy_See#Accredited_Embassies_in_Switzerland). ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-embassy-to-vatican-city/850355/10 "2020-03-27T13:05:03Z")
> [@APB](#): > > One point to note is that it is only relatively recently that some of the major non-Roman Catholic countries have sent full ambassadors to the Holy See. The UK has done so only since 1982, the USA since 1984, Russia since 2010. Before then they used officials with lesser titles or didn’t have diplomatic relations at all. > > The Vatican refuses to recognise ambassadors to the Holy See who are also the ambassador to Italy and it isn’t hugely keen on the current trend for countries to house the two embassies in the same building. [Lots of countries get round that by combining it with their embassy to another European country, often Switzerland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_diplomatic_missions_to_the_Holy_See#Accredited_Embassies_in_Switzerland). Note that Reagan was [criticized for sending an ambassador to the Vatican](https://www.nytimes.com/1984/01/11/world/church-groups-denounce-reagan-move.html). Jerry Falwell said he was going to ask for an ambassador too. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-embassy-to-vatican-city/850355/11 "2020-03-27T14:40:59Z")
If the Holy See is so insistent that other countries house their Vatican embassies separately from their Italian embassies, it should be willing to grant them land on Vatican grounds for those embassies. However, given that the Vatican City is only 109 acres, that’s not really practical. And similarly, it’s not really practical to house an embassy for a country of a thousand people separately from an embassy for a country of 60 million. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2020, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-embassy-to-vatican-city/850355/12 "2020-04-01T18:36:43Z")
I’d like to skip in that many countries (but not the United States) actually operate three embassies in Rome. One to Italy, one to the Vatican (which is, as others have been pointed out, strictly speaking an embassy to the Holy See, but the distinction between the Vatican and the Holy See is something of a nuance in international law), and one to the [Sovereign Military Order of Malta](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_Military_Order_of_Malta), a crusade-era order of chivalry which at some stage used to rule teh island of Malta and which continues to exist as a widely recognised subject of international law, but without sovereignty over any territory. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2020, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-embassy-to-vatican-city/850355/13 "2020-04-01T18:58:01Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > If the Holy See is so insistent that other countries house their Vatican embassies separately from their Italian embassies, it should be willing to grant them land on Vatican grounds for those embassies. However, given that the Vatican City is only 109 acres, that’s not really practical. And similarly, it’s not really practical to house an embassy for a country of a thousand people separately from an embassy for a country of 60 million. It would be even more impractical if more countries sent ambassadors to the Sovereign Order of Malta. Their entire national territory consists of five buildings. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2020, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-embassy-to-vatican-city/850355/14 "2020-04-01T19:22:40Z")
> [@Schnitte](#): > > I’d like to skip in that many countries (but not the United States) actually operate three embassies in Rome. One to Italy, one to the Vatican (which is, as others have been pointed out, strictly speaking an embassy to the Holy See, but the distinction between the Vatican and the Holy See is something of a nuance in international law), and one to the [Sovereign Military Order of Malta](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_Military_Order_of_Malta), a crusade-era order of chivalry which at some stage used to rule teh island of Malta and which continues to exist as a widely recognised subject of international law, but without sovereignty over any territory. It would be funny if the Vatican built a skyscraper condo building that all of the Embassies could share. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2020, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-embassy-to-vatican-city/850355/15 "2020-04-01T19:28:11Z")
nm, server glitch ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2020, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-embassy-to-vatican-city/850355/16 "2020-04-01T20:00:01Z")
Aside: Vatican City has a papal density of 8 popes per square mile. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2020, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-embassy-to-vatican-city/850355/17 "2020-04-01T22:53:26Z")
> [@APB](#): > > One point to note is that it is only relatively recently that some of the major non-Roman Catholic countries have sent full ambassadors to the Holy See. The UK has done so only since 1982, the USA since 1984, Russia since 2010. Before then they used officials with lesser titles or didn’t have diplomatic relations at all. > > The Vatican refuses to recognise ambassadors to the Holy See who are also the ambassador to Italy and it isn’t hugely keen on the current trend for countries to house the two embassies in the same building. [Lots of countries get round that by combining it with their embassy to another European country, often Switzerland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_diplomatic_missions_to_the_Holy_See#Accredited_Embassies_in_Switzerland). I don’t know who was pope in 1984, but the Holy\_See/Vatican was working on international relations in general. Either as a result of changes in relations with Italy happening at that time, or as a cause. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2020, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-embassy-to-vatican-city/850355/18 "2020-04-01T23:21:50Z")
It’s not being publicized much but the Vatican is hard at work fighting against Coronavirus! [https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=9ofTo\_1585691062](https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=9ofTo_1585691062) ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2020, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-embassy-to-vatican-city/850355/19 "2020-04-01T23:51:30Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Note that Reagan was [criticized for sending an ambassador to the Vatican](https://www.nytimes.com/1984/01/11/world/church-groups-denounce-reagan-move.html). Jerry Falwell said he was going to ask for an ambassador too. Probably meant an exorcist, I can’t imagine a Falwellite going into the belly of the beast > [@Chronos](#): > > Aside: Vatican City has a papal density of 8 popes per square mile. Nitpick: just under 6. And of course with Benedict making occasional visits, you might have that figure > [@Melbourne](#): > > I don’t know who was pope in 1984, but the Holy\_See/Vatican was working on international relations in general. Either as a result of changes in relations with Italy happening at that time, or as a cause. You don’t? It’s not like there’s term limits. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2020, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-embassy-to-vatican-city/850355/20 "2020-04-02T00:01:03Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > I don’t know who was pope in 1984, [snip] That was of course John Paul II, Karol Wojtyla. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-embassy-to-vatican-city/850355.md?page=2)