# US Expats paying US taxes **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 28, 2008, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559 "2008-09-28T07:45:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559/41 "2008-09-29T17:18:32Z")
[According to The Economist (story dated June 12, 2008)](http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11554721&fsrc=wtanaka.com), > [@](#): > > Along with citizens of North Korea and a few other countries, Americans are taxed based on their citizenship, rather than where they live. So they usually pay twice—to their host country and the Internal Revenue Service. As this makes citizenship less palatable, Congress has erected large barriers to stop them jumping ship. In 1996 it forced people who renounced citizenship to continue paying income taxes for an extra ten years. But wait! There’s more! > [@](#): > > Because of pending legislation on President Bush’s desk that is expected to become law by June 16th, any American who wants to surrender his passport has only a few days to do so before facing an enormous penalty . . . > Under the proposed legislation, expatriates surrendering their citizenship with a net worth of $2m or more, or a high income, will have to act as if they have sold all their worldwide assets at a fair market price. If the unrealised gains on these assets exceed $600,000, capital-gains tax will apply. Google tells me that the relevant legislation, the “Heroes Earnings Assistance and Relief Tax (HEART)” act, was indeed signed into law on June 17. Yippee! ETA: Oh, and don’t forget, expats, that you’re required to report each and every one of your foreign bank/brokerage/whatever accounts if the accumulated amount of _all_ of them exceeds US$10,000, on pain of tens of thousands of dollars in fines and (if you’re found to be “willfully” neglecting to file) a possible prison term. Double yippee! ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559/42 "2008-09-29T18:44:38Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You hold a US Passport right? You can use the services of US Consulates, right? If you liked, you could become a citizen of another nation for tax reasons, but you \*choose not to \*as your US Citizenship is of value to you. Consulates charge for almost all services: $35 notary, $80 new passport, they even charge for transport during evacuation from e.g. Lebanon during the recent war. No tax dollars benefiting anyone there. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559/43 "2008-09-29T18:59:42Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > I don’t think that’s correct. According to the [IRS itself](http://www.irs.gov/publications/p54/ch01.html#d0e459), you’re legally required to file if your income is above a certain (very low) threshold, regardless of whether you live in the US or abroad. He’s right and wrong. Although if you owe 0 there is no penalty if you don’t file, there is still a _requirment_, just without teeth. **Desert Nomad** Cite that those fees cover all costs? And, even so, many of those services are only available if you are a US Citizen. You also get to vote- how much is that worth? But if you don’t want to file and pay, why not give up your US Citizenship? ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559/44 "2008-09-29T19:22:58Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > **Desert Nomad** Cite that those fees cover all costs? And, even so, many of those services are only available if you are a US Citizen. You also get to vote- how much is that worth? > > But if you don’t want to file and pay, why not give up your US Citizenship? It may well not cover all costs, but the evacuation bills are actual costs so I understand. I think $35 should be enough to cover any notary considering my bank in the US charges $2. I do get to vote, but know of Americans born overseas that do not (because they are not resident in any state), yet still pay taxes. Even if I give up my citizenship, I’d still have to pay for 10 years. It just rubs me wrong that Brits, Aussies etc can leave their countries and not pay taxes to a country they do not live in. At least I am not on the hook for any of the $700 billion yet… thrilled that the House said No. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559/45 "2008-09-29T19:59:11Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > **Desert Nomad** Cite that those fees cover all costs? And, even so, many of those services are only available if you are a US Citizen. You also get to vote- how much is that worth? > > But if you don’t want to file and pay, why not give up your US Citizenship? I object to having to pay in order to have the right to vote. Taxes aren’t levied in exchange for rights–they are levied in exchange for things like roads and services–roads which I never drive on, and services which I never use. I would be happy to use consular services on a fee-for-service basis. I don’t mind paying for what I use. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559/46 "2008-09-29T20:11:36Z")
> [@](#): > > And, even so, many of those services are only available if you are a US Citizen. You also get to vote- how much is that worth? > But if you don’t want to file and pay, why not give up your US Citizenship? > [@desert nomad](#): > > It may well not cover all costs, but the evacuation bills are actual costs so I understand. I think $35 should be enough to cover any notary fee You’re complaining that the consulate charges you a $35 fee or charges you for an emergency evacuation --but you’re forgetting the main benefit of being of US Citizen overseas: The US consulate _cares about you_ enough to offer you services. Sometimes it’s a minor service (like notarizing your passport); and sometimes it’s a ‘minor’ service like SAVING YOUR LIFE (by evacuating you from a war zone while all your neighbors get shot at.) And in exchange for those services , you get to fill out a 1040 form once a year. But hey, nobody’s forcing you to retain your American citizenship, if the cost isn’t worth it to you. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559/47 "2008-09-29T20:30:36Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > You’re complaining that the consulate charges you a $35 fee or charges you for an emergency evacuation --but you’re forgetting the main benefit of being of US Citizen overseas: > The US consulate _cares about you_ enough to offer you services. Sometimes it’s a minor service (like notarizing your passport); and sometimes it’s a ‘minor’ service like SAVING YOUR LIFE (by evacuating you from a war zone while all your neighbors get shot at.) > > And in exchange for those services , you get to fill out a 1040 form once a year. > But hey, nobody’s forcing you to retain your American citizenship, if the cost isn’t worth it to you. The cost is more than filling out a 1040; the cost is paying taxes to a country you might never set foot in. And I still don’t see paying the US government to make services available which I then must pay for when the services are provided. Do you pay your grocery store money to let you shop there, or do you only pay for what you buy? Incidentally, the one time I was evacuated from a war zone, it was American bombs that were being dropped on my city. So glad I paid for those! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559/48 "2008-09-29T20:46:52Z")
> [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](#): > > The cost is more than filling out a 1040; the cost is paying taxes to a country you might never set foot in. > > And I still don’t see paying the US government to make services available which I then must pay for when the services are provided. Do you pay your grocery store money to let you shop there, or do you only pay for what you buy? > > Incidentally, the one time I was evacuated from a war zone, it was American bombs that were being dropped on my city. So glad I paid for those! :rolleyes: Exactly. And given the abysmal US evacuations have been on par with the Katrina mess, I’ll take my chances with the Canadians, British and French (who did evacuate a few Americans from Lebanon). I would happily pay for any services (and have), but paying for my own government to drop bombs on me is ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559/49 "2008-09-29T23:36:26Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > You’re complaining that the consulate charges you a $35 fee or charges you for an emergency evacuation --but you’re forgetting the main benefit of being of US Citizen overseas: > The US consulate _cares about you_ enough to offer you services. Sometimes it’s a minor service (like notarizing your passport); and sometimes it’s a ‘minor’ service like SAVING YOUR LIFE (by evacuating you from a war zone while all your neighbors get shot at.) > > And in exchange for those services , you get to fill out a 1040 form once a year. > But hey, nobody’s forcing you to retain your American citizenship, if the cost isn’t worth it to you. This is an exceedingly queer line of argument. UK citizen services… bloody hell citizen services of every **developed** nation I know of (although not shitty ones like Korea) are provided, fee for service of course, without this bizarre global taxation. I can’t recall the services for UK, but I do recall having the impression that American fees are right bloody expensive relative to UK or most proper countries fees. Not that I have ever noticed any bloody consulate particularly caring too much about citizens really, so I can see the irritation of the US expats in getting lectured on this account. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559/50 "2008-09-29T23:50:32Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > Not that I have ever noticed any bloody consulate particularly caring too much about citizens really, so I can see the irritation of the US expats in getting lectured on this account. Read “Motoring with Mohammed” by Eric Hansen sometime to see how much the US Embassy (in this case in Sana’a, Yemen) cares. Mr. Hansen was shipwrecked in Yemen in the 80s… they kindy pointed out where the 5-star hotels were and left it at that. :rolleyes: BTW, it’s a wonderful tale of Yemen… one of my favorite books. > **[Motoring with Mohammed: Journeys to Yemen and the Red Sea (Vintage Departures):...](https://www.amazon.com/Motoring-Mohammed-Journeys-Yemen-Red/dp/067973855X)** > > Motoring with Mohammed: Journeys to Yemen and the Red Sea (Vintage Departures) \[Hansen, Eric\] on Amazon.com. \*FREE\* shipping on qualifying offers. Motoring with Mohammed: Journeys to Yemen and the Red Sea (Vintage Departures) ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559/51 "2008-09-30T00:12:45Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > Read “Motoring with Mohammed” by Eric Hansen sometime to see how much the US Embassy (in this case in Sana’a, Yemen) cares. Mr. Hansen was shipwrecked in Yemen in the 80s… they kindy pointed out where the 5-star hotels were and left it at that. :rolleyes: > > BTW, it’s a wonderful tale of Yemen… one of my favorite books. > > [Motoring with Mohammed: Journeys to Yemen and the Red Sea (Vintage Departures): Hansen, Eric: 9780679738558: Amazon.com: Books](http://www.amazon.com/Motoring-Mohammed-Journeys-Yemen-Red/dp/067973855X) Yeah, no surprise. I think some of your fellow citizens have some unrealistic ideas of what services consulates (any consulate) actually provide to citizens, especially residents. Although the French actually seem to go out of their way come to think of it. Must be an AngloSaxon tradition to have shitty consular service and pay for it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559/52 "2008-09-30T00:54:23Z")
> [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](#): > > The cost is more than filling out a 1040; the cost is paying taxes to a country you might never set foot in. > > And I still don’t see paying the US government to make services available which I then must pay for when the services are provided. Do you pay your grocery store money to let you shop there, or do you only pay for what you buy? > : 1. Taxes are never paid on a “as you use” or “as you want” basis.:rolleyes: 2. You very likely do just fill out a 1040, due to the rather large exclusion. :dubious: 3. You have made the choice to remain a US Citizen, no one is forcing you to be an American, unless Qatar won’t have you? ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559/53 "2008-09-30T01:18:04Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > 1. Taxes are never paid on a “as you use” or “as you want” basis.:rolleyes: > 2. You very likely do just fill out a 1040, due to the rather large exclusion. :dubious: > 3. You have made the choice to remain a US Citizen, no one is forcing you to be an American, unless Qatar won’t have you? Well except the Americans are the only ones with global taxation, excepting the August Ranks of small dictatorships and the like. I can’t blame US expats for being put out, look at the sneering about Qatar, not as if UK or Canadians, or Aussies, or French or Germans face such choices. But then you are the land of "Love it or leave it, right? ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559/54 "2008-09-30T01:30:29Z")
Didn’t you lot in the US fight a war with a certain Empire back in the 18th Century partly over the issue of Taxation Without Representation? I don’t think I’m incredibly far off the mark to say that taxing your own citizens who are living overseas and therefore not receiving any of the benefits that paying taxes are generally perceived to involve (eg roads, schools, hospitals etc in the US) seems rather a lot like… well, not quite Taxation without representation, but not all that far off the mark either, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559/55 "2008-09-30T02:13:54Z")
[Overview of tax situation for Canadian expats](http://www.expatnetwork.com/?ID=58). Canadians need to demonstrate that they’ve severed residential ties with Canada, which is apparently a lot harder than it seems at first glance. [Overview of tax situation for US expats and permanent residents](http://www.expatnetwork.com/?ID=65). US citizens _and permanent residents_ need to pay tax to the US government no matter where they are. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559/56 "2008-09-30T02:20:40Z")
> [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](#): > > Do you pay your grocery store money to let you shop there, or do you only pay for what you buy? Well, my Sam’s Club membership is $35 per year. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559/57 "2008-09-30T03:55:18Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > I have to ask, realistically, what is to just stop someone who is moving overseas from the US never filing a tax return and just not mentioning it when (if) they finally come back? Actually, I know many American expats in Thailand who do just that. See my post #14 above about the local American journalist who spent 20 years abroad before returning to New York. He knew he owed nothing, so he just blew it off. When he returned to the US, he was worried about getting audited or flagged and so hired an accountant to do up his taxes for the past 20 years based on his Thai and Hong Kong filings. He was worried he’d have to pay some sort of fine for never having filed, but the official he finally spoke to after waiting ages to hear from them said since he never owed anything to begin with, they weren’t really all that concerned. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559/58 "2008-09-30T06:52:40Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > I do get to vote, but know of Americans born overseas that do not (because they are not resident in any state) That doesn’t necessarily matter. A number of states allow US citizens born overseas to register at their parents’ last US address. There are a couple bills going through Congress that would put this provision into federal law, but I’m not sure where they’re at now. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559/59 "2008-09-30T07:08:51Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > That doesn’t necessarily matter. A number of states allow US citizens born overseas to register at their parents’ last US address. There are a couple bills going through Congress that would put this provision into federal law, but I’m not sure where they’re at now. Not all states do, and the case I know of most directly is one of those states. Other expats (Brits, Aussies etc) can’t believe we Americans still pay taxes to the US… esp if we have never even lived there. It is just wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559/60 "2008-09-30T07:11:58Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > 1. Taxes are never paid on a “as you use” or “as you want” basis.:rolleyes: I don’t mind paying taxes to support infrastructure and services in a country I inhabit. I object to the line of argument some Dopers are trotting out that I have to buy my rights (e.g., my right to vote). > [@](#): > > 1. You very likely do just fill out a 1040, due to the rather large exclusion. :dubious: Actually, I do. I will owe the federal gov’t over $20,000 this year. > [@](#): > > 1. You have made the choice to remain a US Citizen, no one is forcing you to be an American, unless Qatar won’t have you? America, love it or leave it, right? :rolleyes: I have the right to criticize US policies I don’t agree with. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559.md?page=4)