# US Expats paying US taxes **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 28, 2008, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559 "2008-09-28T07:45:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559/61 "2008-09-30T07:38:41Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > Not that I have ever noticed any bloody consulate particularly caring too much about citizens really, so I can see the irritation of the US expats in getting lectured on this account. Actually, many of the other embassies in Tokyo are constantly hosting parties and other fun events (which are open to all nationalities). It just seems to be the US embassy that wants nothing to do with anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559/62 "2008-09-30T07:51:38Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > 1. Taxes are never paid on a “as you use” or “as you want” basis.:rolleyes: Except if there is no possibility for me to get any services because of where I live, it makes no sense to be paying at all. > [@DrDeth](#): > > 1. You very likely do just fill out a 1040, due to the rather large exclusion. :dubious: Actually, I have to fill out a 1040, 8453, 8879, Scd B, Sch E, 8858, 4797, 2555, 4562, TD F 90-22.1 (gotta declare all my bank accounts). All this, not to mention the 1120S and attachments. Preparing my taxes costs me more than $2000. So I sent all this in… along with $23,000 (plus all the Social Security I had paid throughout the year). > [@DrDeth](#): > > 1. You have made the choice to remain a US Citizen, no one is forcing you to be an American, unless Qatar won’t have you? They do nearly force you remain American as they tax you for ten years after giving up citizenship and upon giving up citizenship one must pay capital gains on all US assets as if they had been sold at current market value (even if they haven’t). Qatar (along with all Gulf states) does not grant citizenship to anyone - you have to have been born there to Qatari parents. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559/63 "2008-09-30T08:09:07Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > Except if there is no possibility for me to get any services because of where I live, it makes no sense to be paying at all. And some services we pay for (like Medicare) we are in principle ineligible for as we don’t reside in the US. Yet we pay for them still. And as I noted above, there is no income exclusion for FICA. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559/64 "2008-09-30T10:06:03Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > Except Actually, I have to fill out a 1040, 8453, 8879, Scd B, Sch E, 8858, 4797, 2555, 4562, TD F 90-22.1 (gotta declare all my bank accounts). All this, not to mention the 1120S and attachments. Preparing my taxes costs me more than $2000. Not to mention a 1116. This is on top of having to do all the taxes in the country of residence. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559/65 "2008-09-30T10:17:44Z")
> [@TokyoPlayer](#): > > Not to mention a 1116. > > This is on top of having to do all the taxes in the country of residence. I haven’t had to do that yet on a personal level as the UAE doesn’t impose taxes on anyone. When I lived in Georgia (the country), my employer dealt with it (or maybe it was lost in the mass of corruption in that country) and in Europe I only have to deal with it for my apartment holding company, but that alone costs around $1500. I wouldn’t mind permanent residence in Qatar or maybe the UAE although Dubai is way too crazy now - it was better in the early 90s. I think Qatar gives residency upon purchase of real estate as does Dubai (except Dubai has gotten a bit vague on that recently). ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559/66 "2008-09-30T10:30:51Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > I think Qatar gives residency upon purchase of real estate. True, but foreigners can only buy land on [The Pearl](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pearl-Qatar). ---
**Author:** ![GingerOfTheNorth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/cdc98d/32.png) [@GingerOfTheNorth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GingerOfTheNorth)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559/67 "2008-09-30T14:25:27Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > [Overview of tax situation for Canadian expats](http://www.expatnetwork.com/?ID=58). Canadians need to demonstrate that they’ve severed residential ties with Canada, which is apparently a lot harder than it seems at first glance. [Overview of tax situation for US expats and permanent residents](http://www.expatnetwork.com/?ID=65). US citizens _and permanent residents_ need to pay tax to the US government no matter where they are. Well son of a bitch. The only thing preventing me applying for US citizenship was that I felt it unfair that I’d have to pay US taxes regardless of where I lived. Now I see that even as a permanent resident (green card holder), I have to pay. Nothing stopping me now, right? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559/68 "2008-09-30T15:51:53Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Didn’t you lot in the US fight a war with a certain Empire back in the 18th Century partly over the issue of Taxation Without Representation? > > I don’t think I’m incredibly far off the mark to say that taxing your own citizens who are living overseas and therefore not receiving any of the benefits that paying taxes are generally perceived to involve (eg roads, schools, hospitals etc in the US) seems rather a lot like… well, not quite Taxation without representation, but not all that far off the mark either, IMHO. You can vote. That is exactly what Taxaction without Representation is all about. And you get benefits, such as your passport- there are other benefits too, but you choose not to use them. Not my fault, your _choice_. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559/69 "2008-09-30T15:55:28Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > Except if there is no possibility for me to get any services because of where I live, it makes no sense to be paying at all. > They do nearly force you remain American as they tax you for ten years after giving up citizenship and upon giving up citizenship one must pay capital gains on all US assets as if they had been sold at current market value (even if they haven’t). > > Qatar (along with all Gulf states) does not grant citizenship to anyone - you have to have been born there to Qatari parents. US Residents living out in the country far from most roads and infrastructure must also pay taxes. Why do you say you have no possibility of using US Roads, etc- they won’t let you back in? You choose to remain there. Did you get your education in the US? So, when did you move out there? And, when did you start the process? Aha, and it’s the \*USA \*that’s unfair.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559/70 "2008-09-30T16:03:19Z")
> [@TokyoPlayer](#): > > Not to mention a 1116. > > This is on top of having to do all the taxes in the country of residence. I thought your employer did the taxes in Japan? ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559/71 "2008-09-30T16:04:46Z")
> [@GingerOfTheNorth](#): > > Well son of a bitch. The only thing preventing me applying for US citizenship was that I felt it unfair that I’d have to pay US taxes regardless of where I lived. Now I see that even as a permanent resident (green card holder), I have to pay. Nothing stopping me now, right? Yeah, I was surprised by the addition of permanent residents as well. Can you get citizenship quickly enough to vote in the upcoming election? 😃 (And do you still get to vote un the upcoming Canadian election?) ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559/72 "2008-09-30T16:08:21Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You can vote. That is exactly what Taxaction without Representation is all about. And you get benefits, such as your passport- there are other benefits too, but you choose not to use them. Not my fault, your _choice_. And what about the Americans that can’t vote because they were born overseas and never lived in the USA… why should they pay tax to a country where they get no benefits and can’t elect their leaders? ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559/73 "2008-09-30T16:13:56Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > US Residents living out in the country far from most roads and infrastructure must also pay taxes. Why do you say you have no possibility of using US Roads, etc- they won’t let you back in? You choose to remain there. Did you get your education in the US? > > So, when did you move out there? And, when did you start the process? > > Aha, and it’s the \*USA \*that’s unfair.:rolleyes: I choose to remain here because if I were in the USA, I can’t get health insurance. I did get my education in the US, which my parents taxes paid for. I paid for my own university and have no children. Most Americans overseas are sent here by their companies and have little say in the matter. And yes, the USA is being unreasonable here in comparison to other industrialized countries that do not tax people who don’t live there. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559/74 "2008-09-30T16:23:45Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > US Residents living out in the country far from most roads and infrastructure must also pay taxes. Why do you say you have no possibility of using US Roads, etc- they won’t let you back in? You choose to remain there. Did you get your education in the US? > > So, when did you move out there? And, when did you start the process? > > Aha, and it’s the \*USA \*that’s unfair.:rolleyes: So I assume you are in California. If you move to another state do you think you should still pay California income tax for the rest of your life? Did you get your education in California? I think they’ll always let you drive on their roads. Same issue with the USA vs Qatar or any other country. ---
**Author:** ![tetranz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@tetranz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tetranz)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2008, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559/75 "2008-09-30T16:51:36Z")
> [@GingerOfTheNorth](#): > > Well son of a bitch. The only thing preventing me applying for US citizenship was that I felt it unfair that I’d have to pay US taxes regardless of where I lived. Now I see that even as a permanent resident (green card holder), I have to pay. Nothing stopping me now, right? That surprised me too as someone close to getting permanent residency. The only real difference I guess is that if you leave the US then your green card eventually expires which I assume means you no longer need to file or pay US taxes. ---
**Author:** ![GingerOfTheNorth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/cdc98d/32.png) [@GingerOfTheNorth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GingerOfTheNorth)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559/76 "2008-10-01T03:54:28Z")
> [@tetranz](#): > > That surprised me too as someone close to getting permanent residency. The only real difference I guess is that if you leave the US then your green card eventually expires which I assume means you no longer need to file or pay US taxes. Your green card may expire, but your status does not expire. > [@Sunspace](#): > > Yeah, I was surprised by the addition of permanent residents as well. > > Can you get citizenship quickly enough to vote in the upcoming election? 😃 (And do you still get to vote un the upcoming Canadian election?) No, and it wouldn’t matter anyway, because I live in a firmly blue state. And no, I don’t get a vote in Canada either, since I have lived away more than five years and have no intent to move back anytime soon. Again, it wouldn’t matter; my home riding is in rural Alberta. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559/77 "2008-10-01T04:10:41Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > I thought your employer did the taxes in Japan? Unless you are self-employed, as I was for a while. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559/78 "2008-10-01T05:53:48Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > And what about the Americans that can’t vote because they were born overseas and never lived in the USA… why should they pay tax to a country where they get no benefits and can’t elect their leaders? I agree they shouldn’t pay taxes. On the other hand, maybe they shouldn’t be citizens either. It doesn’t sound as though either they or the US really need each other. Actually I’d wonder why they even bother paying those taxes. Presumably they’ve made a decision that retaining that US citizenship is worth the cost to them - otherwise they could just live their lives as though they weren’t US citizens and the US government would be none the wiser. Also, while the US may be almost unique in requiring its citizens to pay taxes on income earned abroad, it’s not unique in imposing _some_ obligation on citizens regardless of their residency. A number of countries have compulsory military service, for example, and living abroad isn’t an excuse to get out of it. [QUOTE=GingerOfTheNorth] Your green card may expire, but your status does not expire. [/quote] Your status does expire if you stay out of the US long enough. Anything more than a year’s absence puts you at risk of losing your residency when you try to re-enter. Even shorter absences can get you in trouble if the immigration people think you’re really living abroad and using your green card as a hassle-free entry visa. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559/79 "2008-10-01T05:59:15Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > Also, while the US may be almost unique in requiring its citizens to pay taxes on income earned abroad, it’s not unique in imposing _some_ obligation on citizens regardless of their residency. A number of countries have compulsory military service, for example, and living abroad isn’t an excuse to get out of it. It is provided you stay out of whatever country you’re a citizen of that requires National Service; I believe France won’t bother you if are living overseas, but the minute you step foot on French Soil- even if it’s just for a 2 week holiday- you’re liable to be intercepted and made to do your National Service. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2008, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559/80 "2008-10-01T06:36:14Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > It is provided you stay out of whatever country you’re a citizen of that requires National Service Well, obviously if you stay out of the country they won’t be _able_ to force you to do your military service, but technically it may still be a legal requirement, depending on the country. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-expats-paying-us-taxes/465559.md?page=5)