# US Federal Eugenics Program **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 6, 2014, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-federal-eugenics-program/677993 "2014-01-06T01:53:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-federal-eugenics-program/677993/181 "2014-01-11T00:14:48Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, maybe it is, but that just means that what are commonly called “fallacies” are not automatically wrong, though we should recognize their use. Sometimes slippery-slope arguments can be valid, for example. Fair point. Either way, I don’t feel the urgency to spend a lot of time debunking those who have shown that agenda drives them far more than facts, fallacy or otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-federal-eugenics-program/677993/182 "2014-01-11T00:28:12Z")
Well, it’s _possible_ for a white supremacist to make a valid observation on genetics. It’s fair to assume until proven otherwise that he won’t, though. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-federal-eugenics-program/677993/183 "2014-01-11T02:14:21Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Not automatically, but I gather the OP feels stupid people are harming America or something. AFAICS, if you got rid of all the stupid people, huge sectors of the economy would severely list, capsize or completely collapse. Stupidity and short-sighted folly are a crucial resource, if everyone was über-smart, society would be in constant turmoil. In other words, we oppose eugenics because it is a serious threat to the peace. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2014, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-federal-eugenics-program/677993/184 "2014-01-12T03:00:44Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > We are all, every person on this planet, descended from slaves, criminals and idiots. And draft dodgers! The rest of the world’s endless and stupid wars, and their need for cannon fodder, have made America what it is today. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > For some reason, the subject of eugenics always makes me think of [a cool dude in a loose mood](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeZlXJtLhMQ). I hate you. I know where that link goes. I just didn’t know it was Ace Frehley. This thread has been educational because I also learned the word “nulliparous.” I already knew that if a poster gets his name from an Ayn Rand book I will probably disagree with him. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Not automatically, but I gather the OP feels stupid people are harming America or something. Turning it into Canada, they are! ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2014, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-federal-eugenics-program/677993/185 "2014-01-12T03:03:08Z")
> [@For You](#): > > AFAICS, if you got rid of all the stupid people, huge sectors of the economy would severely list, capsize or completely collapse. Stupidity and short-sighted folly are a crucial resource, if everyone was über-smart, society would be in constant turmoil. Fortunately, there doesn’t seem to be a correlation between high intelligence and low short-sighted folly. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2014, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-federal-eugenics-program/677993/186 "2014-01-12T03:30:49Z")
> [@For You](#): > > AFAICS, if you got rid of all the stupid people, huge sectors of the economy would severely list, capsize or completely collapse. Stupidity and short-sighted folly are a crucial resource, if everyone was über-smart, society would be in constant turmoil. _Brave New World_ wasn’t a documentary, you know. > [@](#): > > Mustapha Mond smiled. “Well, you can call it an experiment in rebottling if you like. It began in A.F. 473. The Controllers had the island of Cyprus cleared of all its existing inhabitants and re-colonized with a specially prepared batch of twenty-two thousand Alphas. All agricultural and industrial equipment was handed over to them and they were left to manage their own affairs. The result exactly fulfilled all the theoretical predictions. The land wasn’t properly worked; there were strikes in all the factories; the laws were set at naught, orders disobeyed; all the people detailed for a spell of low-grade work were perpetually intriguing for high-grade jobs, and all the people with high-grade jobs were counter-intriguing at all costs to stay where they were. Within six years they were having a first-class civil war. When nineteen out of the twenty-two thousand had been killed, the survivors unanimously petitioned the World Controllers to resume the government of the island. Which they did. And that was the end of the only society of Alphas that the world has ever seen.” ---
**Author:** ![johngalt2014](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8dc957/32.png) [@johngalt2014](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johngalt2014)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-federal-eugenics-program/677993/187 "2014-01-13T02:15:22Z")
So if Ms. Precious for example, has 6 children by age 22, dropped out of high school, has no job, and no income, how would she and her 6 children survive in a true natural selection environment? They would not. It is our welfare, food stamps, free healthcare in our emergency departments, etc. that allows them to live. Are there any other species that hunt for or forage food, and then redistribute it to an unrelated family? ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-federal-eugenics-program/677993/188 "2014-01-13T02:26:44Z")
In a true natural selection environment, she and her children would kill you and take over your house and bank account. You’re now going to say that you mean a natural selection environment where people’s property is protected by the government. That’s not a true natural selection environment. At the point that we conceded any powers (yes, any powers whatsoever) to the government, we gave up on the idea that natural selection was the best system. What you want is for us to use just enough natural selection to keep you in power but not enough to allow other people to kill you or steal from you. ---
**Author:** ![johngalt2014](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8dc957/32.png) [@johngalt2014](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johngalt2014)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-federal-eugenics-program/677993/189 "2014-01-13T02:42:30Z")
I disagree. Without entitlements many of her children would have died at birth, she may have died too. If not she would likely die of starvation. (Rather than a subsidized chronic obesity that she does right now with all the handouts she is getting.) And no I would not cite property rights. With my program, she could have actually truly _earned_ some money, and the world would have been spared the resource drain, future crime, and costs of her 6 offspring. Everyone would be better off. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-federal-eugenics-program/677993/190 "2014-01-13T02:48:43Z")
> [@For You](#): > > AFAICS, if you got rid of all the stupid people, huge sectors of the economy would severely list, capsize or completely collapse. Stupidity and short-sighted folly are a crucial resource, if everyone was über-smart, society would be in constant turmoil. Most posters in [this thread on that very topic](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=710466) disagree emphatically. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-federal-eugenics-program/677993/191 "2014-01-13T02:50:51Z")
> [@johngalt2014](#): > > So if Ms. Precious for example, has 6 children by age 22, dropped out of high school, has no job, and no income, how would she and her 6 children survive in a true natural selection environment? Probably by bringing your honor student’s carcass home for dinner. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-federal-eugenics-program/677993/192 "2014-01-13T03:30:25Z")
> [@johngalt2014](#): > > Are there any other species that hunt for or forage food, and then redistribute it to an unrelated family? And how’s that working out for the species? Humanity fading away? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-federal-eugenics-program/677993/193 "2014-01-13T03:36:21Z")
> [@johngalt2014](#): > > I disagree. Without entitlements many of her children would have died at birth, she may have died too. If not she would likely die of starvation. (Rather than a subsidized chronic obesity that she does right now with all the handouts she is getting.) > > And no I would not cite property rights. > > With my program, she could have actually truly _earned_ some money, and the world would have been spared the resource drain, future crime, and costs of her 6 offspring. Everyone would be better off. So eugenics has failed in the real world. And you want a government program to step in and support it. I’m assuming the irony of what you’re saying escapes you. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-federal-eugenics-program/677993/194 "2014-01-13T04:22:19Z")
> [@johngalt2014](#): > > So if Ms. Precious for example, has 6 children by age 22, dropped out of high school, has no job, and no income, how would she and her 6 children survive in a true natural selection environment? They would not. It is our welfare, food stamps, free healthcare in our emergency departments, etc. that allows them to live. > > Are there any other species that hunt for or forage food, and then redistribute it to an unrelated family? Not to detract from your “decrease the surplus population” thesis, but would it matter if Ms. Precious was instead Ms. Mary-Lee McOzark? ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-federal-eugenics-program/677993/195 "2014-01-13T04:29:48Z")
> [@johngalt2014](#): > > I disagree. Without entitlements many of her children would have died at birth, she may have died too. And? Unlikely as it is to be, I’d really like the OP to address his incredibly obvious and quite serious misconceptions about natural selection and eugenics. As noted in this thread (repeatedly, I might add), even assuming she would have died, what does that have to do with natural selection and/or the success of a eugenics program? Maybe it’s pissing into the wind, but once again, the human gene pool is not somehow weakened by having these additional people in it. Natural selection doesn’t work that way. It would only be an issue if they crowded out resources for the “select”. But rich, intelligent people aren’t prevented from reproducing because other, poorer and/or less intelligent people are around. Their genes are still around and contributing to the human pool. Again, “Idiocracy” was not a documentary. Nor was it a cautionary tale. It was a satire, and like most satires, it commented mainly on contemporary culture, rather than a potential future. ETA: To put my point better, the OP is clearly conflating cultural darwinism with actual darwinism. I thought we got past that fallacy decades ago, but I guess not. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-federal-eugenics-program/677993/196 "2014-01-13T07:47:46Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Most posters in [this thread on that very topic](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=710466) disagree emphatically. I was being a little cynical and sarcastic (excuses, excuses), blindly flailing away at consumerist capitalism. As has been noted elsewhere on this thread, “intelligence” is an idea that is too broad and diverse to submit to ready quantization – a quantum physicist might well be totally flummoxed by the workings and foibles of an automobile engines, the man who can construct and elegant and beautiful staircase would probably struggle mightily with ureter stent insertion, but these are useful skills, all, for people to develop. Valuing one type of skill greatly over another may be risky to the point of folly. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-federal-eugenics-program/677993/197 "2014-01-13T08:06:10Z")
So you want the government to support eugenics because you believe in natural selection. Again, in so far as the government supports it, it’s not natural selection. Incidentally, by using the name “Precious,” I assume you’re referring to the film (and the novel it was adopted from, which I don’t know much about) _Precious_. First, let’s note that the heroine of that film is black. So when you have to come up with someone who should be sterilized, your example is black. Second, you don’t actually know much about that movie: > **[Precious (film)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precious_(film))** > > Precious: Based on the Novel 'Push' by Sapphire, or simply Precious, is a 2009 American drama film, directed and co-produced by Lee Daniels. Its script was written by Geoffrey S. Fletcher, adapted from the 1996 novel Push by Sapphire. The film stars Gabourey Sidibe and Mo'Nique, alongside Paula Patton, Mariah Carey, Sherri Shepherd, and Lenny Kravitz. This marked the acting debut of Sidibe, who portrays a young woman struggling against poverty and abuse. Filming took place in New York City fro The character was not stupid. She grew up in poverty. She had two children by the time she was 16 because she had been repeatedly raped by her father. She was apparently of average intelligence, but she had learned almost nothing in school because of her chaotic home situation. The film ends with her living apart from her messed-up family trying to catch up for everything that had been done to her. She hoped to eventually get her GED. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-federal-eugenics-program/677993/198 "2014-01-13T08:37:46Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > She had two children by the time she was 16 because she had been repeatedly raped by her father. Carrie Buck, arguably the most famous real life victim of eugenics, was also impregnated by being raped by a family member (a cousin in her case). When Buck became pregnant she was institutionalized and sterilized after her child was born. For good measure, her sister was also sterilized. Demonstrating the weakness of the eugenic argument, Buck’s daughter turned out to have normal intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-federal-eugenics-program/677993/199 "2014-01-13T11:09:50Z")
> [@johngalt2014](#): > > So if Ms. Precious for example, has 6 children by age 22, dropped out of high school, has no job, and no income, how would she and her 6 children survive in a true natural selection environment? They would not. It is our welfare, food stamps, free healthcare in our emergency departments, etc. that allows them to live. If she leaves more offspring than you do then in Darwinian terms she is more fit than you. The fact she has learned to manipulate her environment to her advantage only demonstrates she is smart and adaptable. In other words, you’re jealous she’s doing better than you in evolutionary terms. > [@](#): > > Are there any other species that hunt for or forage food, and then redistribute it to an unrelated family? Slaver ants capture other, unrelated ants and make them hunt and forage for them. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-federal-eugenics-program/677993/200 "2014-01-13T13:03:46Z")
OK, I was going to say, - your proposal has a “regressive” effect - but then I see that you do actually want to “kill off” the poor people, as a method of increasing IQ. Leaving aside the scientific issue of using “poorness” as a surrogate for “low-IQ”, and the moral-ethical issues, and political issues, and the scientific issues, of trying to breed-out poverty or low-IQ, you’re still left with an intractable practical problem: Children provide social-security for poor people. In the absence of a good (expensive) wellfare program for poor people, they have, where ideas similar to this have already been tried, generally been unwilling to take up the offers. In fact, it is generally accepted that it works better to spend the money on welfare programs, and let the people make up their own mind about the number of children they want, when they aren’t depending on the children to help them when they get old. Do you expect this to work differently in your city? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-federal-eugenics-program/677993.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-federal-eugenics-program/677993.md?page=11)