But mommy, they hit us in the WTC ! Wah !
I’m wondering why the hell FRANCE of all places is exempt, much less the other 27 countries on the exempt list? France?
Didn’t the US just basically give the terrorists relocation ideas?
If they’re gonna do this they need to go all out and fingerprint everyone coming from another country.
Huh. Someone has something wrong. The New York Times article on the same subject indicates that total hits were in the .1% range – false hits would presumably be a subset of this. Clearly, more data is needed here, or at least a better-written article by someone somewhere.
No question about that. U.S. customs agents are noted worldwide for their rudeness (well, customs agents just about everywhere are, but ours are bad even by those standards). Like people who rely on databases everywhere, they need better training. But do my cellphone provider first. 
As I said, many countries, including the USA, routinely use reciprocity as a basis for how they treat citizens of other countries. It is a very traditional thing in international relations and the USA does it like everybody else. Now, do you believe it is wrong when the USA does it? It so, why so?
I’ve got my Pit thread all drafted . . but maybe this will suffice.
I am not partaking in this infringement of (what I consider to be) my civil liberties. The neo-cons and their political gestures can shove it and, when it kicks in for Europeans, I shall take my spending power elsewhere until this idiocy is rectified.
Show me one example of how this aids security and I’ll reconsider. Here’s a challenge for anyone:
How would this policy have prevented 9/11 or any other acts of suicidal-type ‘terrorism’ ?
It actually reminds me of the Bo USA ! steel tariffs Bush imposed and had to back down from. As then, I await the Law of Unintentional Consequences with some interest.
So, unless otherwise proven, for me it’s just another trip to downtown Wankerville with the NeoCon Bus Co.
I rather like the idea of Brazil . . . maybe Cuba . . .
You guys should see the questions asked in the US VISA application paper… its RIDICULOUS. Questions like:
“Have you ever been part of Genocide ?”
“Do you have the intention of doing something illegal/sell drugs?”
I need to get one and put the full list… so many stupid questions. Must have gotten worse since 9/11 of course.
Is this list correct? I notice that my home country, Greece, is not included.
This is strange! Last time I checked, Greece was a member of EU and NATO.
Correct, dog. What the countries on the list have in common isn’t EU or NATO membership or even status as a US ally (although that is part of the consideration – see below). What they have in common is membership in the Visa Waiver Program (requirements here).
Interestingly, the United States would probably not qualify under the VWP, as it is too easy to get citizenship here. Without further information, I’d WAG that’s the same thing that tripped up your homeland – you let too many non-Greeks in! Or it could be something as simple as Greece doesn’t have in place a machine-readable passport program. Dunno.
This will have unintended consequences indeed. It already has. the policy was anounced some months ago and was not very clear so, even before it was required, I already know one family who changed their plans to visit NYC and they went to Argentina instead. They were not required then and are not required now to get fingerprints or anything else but the whole conused way in which the US government announced the requirement for machine-readable passports, biometrics, etc, made them think it might be risky to buy tickets to the US and find out at the last moment they were missing some crucial form or blessing. So they went to Argentina.
The USA earns millions of dollars every year from foreign tourism and that sector will probably be hit hard.
I already read an article that enrollment of foreign students in American Universities has declined steeply and they have increased just as steeply in the UK, Australia and other countries. These students pay full tuition and provide much needed support for the colleges they attend and help keep tition lower for American students.
As I say, it is not only the measures themselves but also how clumsily they have been implemented. When the world sees photos of parents or children crying because their family members were being expelled or jailed for some minor bureacratic glitch (which often is to be blamed on the government), when the world sees photos of families fleeing the USA to Canada, on foot, at night, in the winter snow because of the scare that people were being jailed for not registering and not being able to register… well, these things do not even register with most Americans but they register with the communities where those people come from.
I believe these measures are costing and will cost the USA a lot of money and a lot of enmity and that the benefits in no way justify those costs.
Greece was notorious for lax security… ?
Oooh, and yet sooo concerned about the trampling of the poor visitors’ rights, you’re a real humanist, champ :rolleyes:
This initiative is misguided, true, but not really something to get all weepy over. Akin to the US’s efforts to thwart drug traffickers at the borders or mandated waiting periods for gun buyers, the effect is most likely to be felt by regular people and those it is intended to target will easily find means to circumvent it. But then again, you already need a passport with a picture ID to go most anywhere, and swiping your thumb over an electronic device dosen’t seem all that traumatic, its not like they’re asking for blood and urine samples… nothing nefarious, really, just kinda useless. So hey, lets hear some better ways to spend the money, I’m no security expert, but there’s gotta be some…
Comparing mass murder to having one’s fingerprint scanned at the airport is a joke, right? Nevertheless, it’s in extremely poor taste.
milroyj = Owned
Admirable sentiment, sailor. And, as you rightly point out, reciprocity is a key feature of international diplomacy. It is most obvious in areas such as trade–where Country A opens its borders to Country B, and Country B gives equal treatment to Country B–but is common in many other areas as well.
The babies at the US Embassy in Brazil, however, do not share your sentiments.
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! Some Americans might be subjected to a few delays. The injustice of it all.
What these dunces, and people like milroyj, fail to realise is that reciprocity in international relations merely means treating another country in the same way that they treat you. The boobs at the embassy can complain all they like about how the US policy is a well-though-out program tied to visa requiremments, while the Brazilian policy is just a single retaliatory measure, but it is not the Brazilian government’s responsibility to worry about how America treats the citizens of other countries. All the Brazilian government need to be concerned about is how America treats Brazilians, and it has every right to treat Americans the same way. Why should Brazil start fingerprinting citizens of Australia, or Germany, or Kenya, if those countries don’t fingerprint Brazilians?
Tit-for-tat measures aside, however, my biggest gripe with the US policy is that it seems extremely unlikely to yield much in the way of concrete results. As people have already pointed out, passports themselves act as security devices. Also, the fact that a visitor can be photographed and fingerprinted upon arrival hardly hinders at all his or her ability to commit an act of terrorism, particularly if it is a suicide mission.
Just imagine this program had been in place four years ago. Would it have prevented 9/11? IIRC most (all? i think a couple of visas had expired) of the hijackers were in the US legally, and having their photos and fingerprints wouldn’t have changed that. Nor would it have prevented them from getting on those planes that day, box-cutters and all.
Personally, i think the whole program needs to be added to the list in this thread.
If the US had announced the measure was to curb illegal immigrants I don’t think anyone would have complained much. There are loads of illegal Brazilians in the US… no terrorists though.
I doubt they would get enough budget for such a nice high tech system if they didn't say "terrorism".
As for the americans being fingerprinted in Rio and Sao Paulo... I am sorry for them. The measure was enacted right after the new year and I bet they are scrambling to get enough federal policemen back from their vacations to fotograph americans. The lines are getting very long... they should suspend the measure until procedures are truly ready.
They would be better served by handing out pamplets explaining to these good american tourists how Brazilians are being handled by US airport security. A few of my countrymen have been sent back without any explanations even when they had valid VISAS... some have been kept overnight in jail cells for no valid reason. I suppose Airport Security must fill a Quota of "suspects".I believe that the plan is to implement fingerprinting at land borders by 2005.
You people don’t understand. It is to encourage us to visit the USA. They store pics and fingerprints to surprise us with gifts when celebrating your:
100the visit : a cup with US flag (I know glasses are prettier to decorate, but in this case by some miracle they reflect in time on certain sensitivities of Muslim visitors regarding the link alcohol --> glass)
200the visit : a free drink at the VIPs lounge of the airport if you have your cup with you. Alcohol hidden from your sight if you happen to be Muslim. If in this case you arrival falls in daylight during Ramadan you may wait for nightfall to come.
300the visit : same free drink using your cup, and a sticker with US flag to put on your luggage (yes, for every -forcibly opened- suitcase you have with you that day)
400the visit : free drink using your cup, a booklet full of luggage stickers no matter how many suitcases you have seen coming back open, and a watch with US flag as background for the figures.
500the visit : free drink using your cup, a booklet stickers, a US flag watch, and they don’t ask you if you plan to overstay your visa, since they are now about sure you shall come back anyway, visa OK or not.
600the visit : free drink in your cup, booklet stickers, US flag watch, no question about plans to overstay your visa, they forcibly open only one of your suitcases and you get it back sealed with tape printed with little US flags.
700the visit : free drink in your cup - now already a bit worn-out – booklet stickers, US flag watch, no questions about overstaying your visa, all your suitcases open yet decoratively and inviting sealed with US flag printed tape, a free drive to your hotel of choice in a car with waving US flags at the front.
800the visit : replacement of your US flag cup and a free drink in it, booklet US flag stickers, US flag watch that is upgraded to a Rolex imitation Made in Thailand, no questions about plans to overstay your visa, suitcases open after they asked you the keys and the US flag printed tape to seal them placed inside them for in case you loose your keys, free drive to hotel in US flags decorated car, Mobile phone with US flag decorated cover coming with the assurance that they don’t tape your calls done with it.
900the visit : free drink in relatively new US flag cup, booklet stickers, US flag Imitation Rolex Made in Thailand watch, no questions about visa-overstay-plans, suitcases open with key and US flag printed tape as gift in case you loose your keys, free drive to hotel in car with US flags waving and roof painted in US flag, US flag decorated Mobile Phone with free non taped calls for as long as you stay while non transgressing your visa, invitation from all US TV channels to come and explain how wonderful your stays in the USA are.
1000the visit : All gifts coming with the 900the visit and the assurance that the greatest gift of all is waiting for you when you leave for home.
You leave for home ending your 1000the visit to the USA :
You get blindfolded and feel the welcoming wind on the tarmac when going outside, tension builds up since a band starts playing the US national hymn, you feel the spotlights of all the invited US TV channels and wonder if they are going to execute you in public Taliban-style.
Then they take away the US flag printed blindfolding towel, the sun shines in your eyes and you can’t see clearly what happens there.
Yet all of a sudden you see it: your plane is decorated with a huge Stars and Stripes that completely covers it, the way to it is one big US flag, the staircase all Stars and Stripes, the band plays, the crowd cheers and applaud while waving uncountable little US flags while you approach a perfectly liking double of the President of the USA to accept from his hands the greatest gift of all :
A real, genuine, colourful, blinding, US made US flag.
You burst in tears and are still crying when you come home with your treasure.
That and nothing else is the reason behind this entire photo taking and fingerprinting.
People always want to see something bad whenever the US does something. You should be ashamed.
Salaam. A
Well, yeah, good point, except for…
…I’m looking forward to hearing stories about outraged Canuck Suits being fingerprinted at the border… 
Not to mention all those outraged Hubbies…“They treated me like a terrorist!” etc.
Conjecture and speculation. My understanding is that the borders of Soviet bloc countries were tightly controlled. Comparing a snapshot and some fingerprints to being shot on your way over the barbedwire in Berlin is kind of a stretch, don’t ya think? I don’t remember hearing this much whining about Chinese and Soviet border controls among the genpop in the states, but hey maybe you remember better than me. The truth is whenever you travel outside your own country you are no longer a citizen and do not have the same or perhaps any protections, I know this from first hand experience. I was detained at the Canadian border for 3 hours, interrogated and had my car pulled apart (left that way) because a friend riding with me had a previous marijauna possesion charge. We were then fingerprinted and sent back across the bridge, all starting because the border gaurd didn’t like how we looked. But hey, it’s their country and they don’t have to grant me anything.
Alde , too hilarious, but could you do me a favor and not make me wait so long for the punchline next time, the anticipation almost made me wet myself.
Shalom;j
Not exactly. As explained in this BBC article, only people taking advantage of the Visa Waiver Program are exempt from the fingerprint/photo process. People who have pre-issued visas (work visa, student visa, etc.) are photographed and fingerprinted regardless of where they are from.
The next time I enter the US I will be carrying a work visa, so I too will be fingerprinted and photographed.