# US General uses "V" word in Afghan War - Only 4 US Combat Deaths since Jan 1. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 10, 2013, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554 "2013-03-10T14:23:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2013, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/1 "2013-03-10T14:23:28Z")
How many readers are aware that only four Americans have been killed in combat in Afghanistan for the past 2 months and 10 days. That is a huge decrease in casualties not seen that low since 2007. We have the outgoing US Commander bringing up the “V” word upon his departure. Who here might agree with what General Allen is quoted saying below? > [@](#): > > New US commander to oversee troop drawdown in Afghanistan > > Elaborate ceremony in 11th year of war sees Marine general say: ‘This is victory. This is what winning looks like’ > > Reuters - [guardian.co.uk](http://guardian.co.uk), Sunday 10 February 2013 10.13 EST > > The US Marine general Joseph Dunford took control of the NATO-led mission in Afghanistan on Sunday, in an elaborate ceremony for the commander who is expected to oversee the withdrawal of most foreign troops by the end of next year. > Allen, who directed ISAF’s transfer of most security across the country to the Afghan army and police, delivered an emotional speech directed largely at Afghans, stressing their role in taking over all security by the middle of the year. > > **“Afghan forces (are) defending Afghan people and enabling the government of this country to serve its citizens,” he said. “This is victory. This is what winning looks like.”** Allen’s words were greeted with enthusiastic applause. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2013, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/2 "2013-03-10T15:04:25Z")
You’re shitting me, right? US combat casualties in Vietnam were reaching all time lows in 1972 _because we were leaving and had ceased conducting aggressive combat operations_ and were handing the war over to the ARVN. Do I need to remind you what happened to the Republic of Vietnam over the next three years? Or what happened to the Soviet backed Afghan government after they left? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2013, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/3 "2013-03-10T15:17:57Z")
Yep, victory: > [@](#): > > [U.S. defense chief’s Afghan news conference canceled over security fears](http://news.yahoo.com/u-defense-chiefs-afghan-news-conference-canceled-over-125044354.html) > > KABUL (Reuters) - A joint news conference that had been scheduled for Afghan President Hamid Karzai and U.S. Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel has been canceled over security concerns, U.S. officials said. > [@](#): > > [Taliban attack trends: Never mind](http://news.yahoo.com/taliban-attack-trends-never-mind-204049648--politics.html) > > WASHINGTON (AP) — The U.S.-led military command in Afghanistan will no longer count and publish the number of Taliban attacks, a statistical measure that it once touted as a gauge of U.S. and allied success but now dismisses as flawed. > > The move comes one week after the coalition, known as the International Security Assistance Force, acknowledged in response to inquiries by The Associated Press that it had incorrectly reported a 7 percent drop in Taliban attacks in 2012 compared to 2011. In fact, there was no decline at all, ISAF officials now say. > > \ > > Anthony Cordesman, a close observer of the war as an analyst at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, said it had been clear for months that ISAF’s figures were flawed. > > \ > > “Basically speaking, we’ve ended up — after the surge and three more years of fighting — with absolutely nothing that we can tell ourselves that shows the level of progress we did or did not achieve,” Cordesman said. I’d hate to see what defeat looks like. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2013, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/4 "2013-03-10T15:20:38Z")
[Something like this.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vj_ImnJrOA0) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2013, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/5 "2013-03-10T15:28:10Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > [Something like this.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vj_ImnJrOA0) Yeah, sort of. But to put that in context, that was 2 years after the US left, and while I would not be surprised if the Afghan government suffers a similar fate at some point, the difference is that Congress explicitly forbade a return of troops to Vietnam after we exited in 1973, whereas we’ll be leaving some troops in Afghanistan indefinitely and it’s quite possible we could “re-enegage” if the Taliban and other opposition forces threaten Kabul. But your point is well taken. That is an image we certainly don’t want to see again. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2013, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/6 "2013-03-10T15:42:56Z")
So the Afghanization of the war is going well? I guess there’s no possibility of future problems then. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/7 "2013-03-10T16:22:10Z")
Smoke and mirrors. What Obama wants is an exit for the USA that doesn’t turn into a rout. What would be more interesting: find out what real estate Karzai and his cronies have been buying…I’m guessing villas in the South of France. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2013, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/8 "2013-03-10T16:26:53Z")
I think it was very impolitic, at best, and reckless, at worst, for that general to be throwing around the term “victory”. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2013, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/9 "2013-03-10T16:46:30Z")
The United States is also winning in Belgium. After all, there were no U.S. combat deaths there at all this year. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2013, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/10 "2013-03-10T16:49:03Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I think it was very impolitic, at best, and reckless, at worst, for that general to be throwing around the term “victory”. Why? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/11 "2013-03-10T17:18:21Z")
> [@CoolHandCox](#): > > Why? “Victory”, in war, is when you conquer your enemy and they surrender. Not seeing that happening here. It’s not as bad as “Mission Accomplished”, but it’s along the same lines. It makes people cynical when evaluating statements from the government about the war. Or perhaps I should say “even more cynical” since there is plenty of cynicism out there already. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2013, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/12 "2013-03-10T17:40:27Z")
Ok. I see your point. He was talking to Afghans (not American cynics) about their role in securing future Afpghanistan in a morale building speech (at least at that moment). It just doesn’t seem reckless to me to describe what he thinks victory looks like to them. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/13 "2013-03-10T17:46:53Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > **You’re shitting me, right?** US combat casualties in Vietnam were reaching all time lows in 1972 _because we were leaving and had ceased conducting aggressive combat operations_ and were handing the war over to the ARVN. Do I need to remind you what happened to the Republic of Vietnam over the next three years? Or what happened to the Soviet backed Afghan government after they left? - #002 Today, 11:04 AM reply to#001 First let me ask, because of your tone, If you are willing to participate in a reasonable discussion on the topic of the War in Afghanistan on its own merits and charactoristics many of which that are not at all similar to the US Experience in Vietnam and the Soviet Experience in the 1980s. If you are willing to discuss the \*\*War in Afghanistan \*\*based upon the nature and specific challenges of geography, and the reasons we went there after the attacks on 9/11, and the multitude of differences between the war fighting technology available in 1970 and 2000; and the huge differences in the geopololitical make up of outside support nations for the opposing sides; and the sociological make-up of Vietnam versus the nature of the fight in Afghanistan and the effect of COIN on combatting an insurgency; and many other conditions I would be willing to present, then could you let me know if you are interested in that, or is this a “MY WAY or the HI-WAY” kind of debate wherein it is not centered on a serious examination of the facts, it is just a constant refrain of “you are shitting me right?” For anyone else, interested in the “STRAIGHTDOPE Philosophy” I will offer this: In AfPAKwe are not fighting on one side of a divided nation as we did in NAM. In NAM we faced not only a non-uniformed guerilla insurgenc, but we opposed a Regualy Army (ARVN ) that maintained its supplies and and direction and authority from the North Vietnamese Government. At the end of Vietnam, It was Richard Nixon, who negotiated “PEACE WITH HONOR” with the CHINESE and North Vietnamese Governent.. Drones/balloons for surveilance were not as technologically advanced in 1970 as they are today. For instance the US/ISAF has tethered balloons with cameras that view what is going on long stretches of major highways and these high range cameras can be daisy-changed for miles so our side can see any type of insurgent activity with regard to planting IED or massing for an attack on any critical institution. Afpak is not being waged a jungle. I’ll have more, but I hope you get the picture. If you just wish to scream that you are right and anybody else is wrong because everybody knows that Adghanistan is Vietnam Redux, then let me know up front, so I wont accused of "one trick ponyism’ because I am quite informed and deeply interested in the subject. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/14 "2013-03-10T18:04:56Z")
Much has happened since Aaron Astor wrote about the “FALLACY of WAITING US OUT” in December of 2009 when Obama announced the second surge of 30,000 troops at West Point. Mainly what has happened since then is that the Afghan Army and Police have placed close to 400,000 Afghans in uniform who are taking the lead in just about every combat and raid operation against Taliban leaders and fighters across most of Afghanistan’s provinces. In 2008 Bush left Afghanistan under the control of the Taliban in about 80% of Afghanstan territory. The Taliban have been routed (not totally eliminated) from most of the territory they controlled at the time. Every single day for the past two to three years, the ANA, and ANP with ISAF Backup from the air and for intelligence, have been on average killing or capturing at least two Taliban commanders all across Afghanistan. > [@](#): > > The Fallacy of ‘Waiting Us Out’ Posted by AARON ASTOR in At TMV. Dec 2nd, 2009 > > Quite simply, the Taliban does not have the luxury of “waiting us out” for 18 months. If they survive that long then it is because we failed in our ground-level counterinsurgency policy, not because we telegraphed our intention not to stay indefinitely. **And if they do try and lay low and wait us out, the Afghan army and government will have had that much more time to establish its legitimate control over the entirety of southern Afghanistan.** What’s more, many patriotic Afghans simply would not support a US mission that they deem as yet another attempt to gain permanent hold of that country. Afghans have a history of welcoming temporary support. But they also have a legendary history of telling empires with long-term ambitions to go find another playground. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2013, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/15 "2013-03-10T18:35:50Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > “Victory”, in war, is when you conquer your enemy and they surrender. Not seeing that happening here. -#011 Today, 01:18 PM reply to #010 . You are speaking in generalities that mostly apply to conventional warfare. AfPAK is a counter-insurgency and General Allen was quite specific as to the fact that he was talking about the war that he just spent over a year running. Here it is again. [QUOTE\*\*] “Afghan forces (are) defending Afghan people and enabling the government of this country to serve its citizens,” \*\*he said. “This is victory. This is what winning looks like.” [/QUOTE] So is it your belief that Afghan forces are not defending the Afghan People much more so than when they didn’t exist in the numbers and the training that they exist today, and when the Taliban had unchallenged control of vast swaths of Afghanistan about five years ago? Examples of near daily occurances in Afghanistan for the past couple of years: > [@](#): > > ISAF Joint Command Operational Update, March 6 > KABUL, Afghanistan - An Afghan and coalition force killed one insurgent and wounded two others, including a Taliban commander, during a security operation in Giro district, Ghazni province, yesterday. > > ISAF Joint Command Operational Update, March 1 > KABUL, Afghanistan – Afghan and coalition forces killed Taliban leader, Sadiq, and wounded another insurgent during an operation in Nahr-e Saraj district, Helmand province, Feb. 28. > > ISAF Joint Command Operational Update, February 28 > KABUL, Afghanistan - An Afghan and coalition security force arrested a Haqqani high-profile attack facilitator and detained two other insurgents during an operation in Pul-e Alam district, Logar province, today. > > Afghan Security Forces Assume Leadership on Security in Four Districts of Ghor. > Chaghcharan, February 24, 2013 – The Afghan National Security Forces assumed yesterday the leadership on security operations in four districts of the western province of Ghor. The formal transition from ISAF to Afghan forces took place in a ceremony held at the base of the Lithuanian Provincial Reconstruction Team (PRT) in Chaghcharan. The four districts - Chaghcharan, Lal Wa Sarjangal, Dowlatyar and Chaharsada – are inhabited by over 80% of the population in the province. > > ISAF Joint Command Operational Update, February 26 > KABUL, Afghanistan - Afghan and coalition forces confirmed today the death of a Taliban leader, Anwar, during an operation in Hisarak district, Nangarhar province, Sunday. > > ISAF Joint Command Operational Update, February 24 > KABUL, Afghanistan – Afghan and coalition forces arrested a senior Taliban leader and three other insurgents during an operation in Khugyani district, Nangarhar province, Feb 24. > > ISAF Spanish Contingent Hand Over Base to the Afghan National Army. > Qala i Now, Afghanistan (February 23, 2013) – The Spanish Contingent of ISAF Regional Command West handed over to the 207th Corps of the Afghan National Army the base of Ludina, in the north-western province of Badghis. > > ISAF Joint Command Feb. 22 Operational Update > KABUL, Afghanistan (February 22, 2013) – An Afghan and coalition security force killed a Taliban improvised explosive device expert, Zekeria, during a security operation in Chahar Darah district, Kunduz province, Feb. 21. > > RC-East Operational Update, February 22 > BAGRAM, Afghanistan (Feb. 22, 2013) - Afghan and coalition forces killed one insurgent, detained six suspected insurgents, located one weapons cache and cleared three improvised explosive devices during operations in eastern Afghanistan throughout the past 24 hours, Feb. 21. > If you’d like to read more, here is the link > > [http://www.isaf.nato.int/article/isaf-releases/index.php](http://www.isaf.nato.int/article/isaf-releases/index.php) ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/16 "2013-03-10T19:02:24Z")
It would be great if John Mace had cited the entire report: > [@](#): > > [COLOR=“Purple”]\*BIG DEAL “Additionally, we have come to realize that a simple tally of (attacks) is not the most complete measure of the campaign’s progress,” he said. “At a time when more than 80 percent of the (attacks) are happening in areas where less than 20 percent of Afghans live, this single facet of the campaign is not particularly accurate in describing the complete effect of the insurgency’s violence on the people of Afghanistan.”[/COLOR] > > \*\*Taliban insurgents have been pushed out of many population centers and have failed to regain territory they held before the surge of U.S. troops in 2010. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2013, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/17 "2013-03-10T19:32:01Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > You are speaking in generalities that mostly apply to conventional warfare. AfPAK is a counter-insurgency and General Allen was quite specific as to the fact that he was talking about the war that he just spent over a year running. > Here it is again. > ]“Afghan forces (are) defending Afghan people and enabling the government of this country to serve its citizens,” \*\*he said. “This is victory. This is what winning looks like.” > So is it your belief that Afghan forces are not defending the Afghan People much more so than when they didn’t exist in the numbers and the training that they exist today, and when the Taliban had unchallenged control of vast swaths of Afghanistan about five years ago? Examples of near daily occurances in Afghanistan for the past couple of years: [/QUOTE] Victory is winning the war, not just winning some battles. Call me when the other side surrenders. We’re leaving because we have to, not because we’ve won. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2013, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/18 "2013-03-10T19:33:28Z")
**NotfooledbyW** , please pay attention to our copyright policy. If you quote from an article, use a reasonably small portion of it and link to the rest. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2013, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/19 "2013-03-10T19:35:09Z")
Mission Accomplished! Again. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2013, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/20 "2013-03-10T19:35:18Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > It would be great if John Mace had cited the entire report: I did “cite” (that is, link to) the entire report. I just didn’t break any board rules by copying too much of the report in my post. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554.md?page=2)