# US General uses "V" word in Afghan War - Only 4 US Combat Deaths since Jan 1. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 10, 2013, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554 "2013-03-10T14:23:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2013, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/181 "2013-03-26T17:42:45Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > To do that you’d need to have a completion date for whatever model of full improvement you think is required. No, you can use cost-to-date and benefit-to-date. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > It is quite more incorrect to say that the democratic process is currently worse than it was in 2001. To me the trend in place carries more weight than sheer pessimism and lack of faith in the people of Afghanistan. Your pessimism is my realism. In any case, since this is all about trends and hypotheticals, we really have no choice but to wait patiently and see what the future holds for Afghanistan. If we’re both still around here in 2014, one of us can jeer at the other that their election prediction was more accurate. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I guess if one thinks that educating young minds makes little difference in the world. and specifically in a highly illiterate nation of 30 million where 10% of families have sent their girls to school with the boys, and at many times, at great risk of violence to their daughters and to themselves. > > I don’t see where the impact of that must be refuted or discounted if it’s value. > Every Afghan child that gets a better education than their parents in that part of the world is a victory to me. > > I don’t see that as an overstatement at all. Again, all these benefits must be considered alongside their costs. I like the idea of Afghan girls going to school, but not that it took 2,000 American lives and billions of dollars. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/182 "2013-03-27T15:16:20Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Human Action > No, you can use cost-to-date and benefit-to-date. Yes, I can do that too. The benefit of dumping Osama Bin Laden’s body into an unknown burial at sea, combined with the kill and capture of thousands of insurgents, Taliban leaders, both in Afghanistan and across the border inside Pakistan, plus the training if nearly 400,000 Afghan Soldiers and Police to hold all gains in territory and major cites taken out of Taliban control, are benefits that are worth the cost to date as part of our inherent right to self-defense in retaliation for the horrendous attacks on US Soil perpetuated from that part if the world on September 11, 2001. -NF 086a > [@](#): > > Your pessimism is my realism. In any case, since this is all about trends and Your pessimism is my realism. In any case, since this is all about trends and hypotheticals, we really have no choice but to wait patiently and see what the future holds for Afghanistan. If we’re both astill around here in 2014, one of us can jeer at the other that their election prediction was more accurate. > hypotheticals, we really have no choice but to wait patiently and see what the future holds for Afghanistan. If we’re both astill around here in 2014, one of us can jeer at the other that their election prediction was more accurate. Conducting a war requires proactive shaping of people, politics and events toward specific military and diplomatic objectives. I disagree with the suggestion that waiting patiently is all that we can do. > [@](#): > > Again, all these benefits must be considered alongside their costs. I like the idea of Afghan girls going to school, but not that it took 2,000 American lives and billions of dollars. We did not go to war in Afghanistan to put girls into schools. Our primary and justified military objective continues to be to kill and destroy the enemy including those sympathetic and in material support of the enemy that attacked us on September 11,2001. The fact that the vast majority of Afghans wholly reject the Taliban’s archaic religious extremist restriction on girls being educated, is a positive result of removing the Taliban’s ability to enforce their will on Afghans that reject it. If the Afghan majority demanded that girls not be educated there would not be so many girls in school. Our military objective would have no bearing on that outcome. I am happy the outcome is what it is. It is encouraging to see so many families send their daughters to be educated equal with the boys despite fear and intimidation from violent Taliban extremists that remain at large. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/183 "2013-03-28T05:51:58Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > I’ve been keeping up on the history of Afghanistan for 37 years. > > The Afghan Army our forces no longer trust to go on joint operations with because they keep killing us. That army. Sounds like a joint operation to me. And Afghan Government troops are shooting their “Taliban Brethren” quite dead quite often. Looks like we trusted good Afghans to shoot the bad Afghans yesterday. > [@](#): > > Afghan, NATO forces kill more than 20 militants; Wednesday March 27, 2013, 12:35 PM; BY RAHIM FAIEZ; Associated Press > KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) — Afghan and NATO forces killed more than 20 insurgents in a joint operation in the eastern Logar province, military officials said Wednesday. > > The two-day operation that ended Tuesday night in the province’s Baraki Barak district also killed a local Taliban commander, said provincial government spokesman Din Mohammad Darwesh. Two civilians were wounded, Darwesh said. There were no immediate reports on possible Afghan or international casualties. > > The troops killed 24 insurgents as part of the operation, which also rescued two captured Afghan soldiers, the NATO military coalition says in a statement. Afghan officials gave varying numbers of 23 to 26 militants killed. > > [http://www.northjersey.com/news/international/Afghan\_NATO\_forces\_kill\_more\_than\_20\_militants.html](http://www.northjersey.com/news/international/Afghan_NATO_forces_kill_more_than_20_militants.html) ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2013, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/184 "2013-03-30T16:47:04Z")
> [@](#): > > “Can you explain how this debate is different from the last debate you started-- the one we all gave up on a few days ago?” -John Mace #128 03-15-2013 09:03 AM 074a0903 Yes, but do you want my response or have you ‘given up’ again before I have a chance to respond. > [@](#): > > “I’m not seeing the difference either. I’ve merged the threads.” -Marley #132 23 03-15-2013 02:07 PM Moderating 074p0207 There are many differences, but let’s call it the Gray Team consisting of John Mace, Dissonance, Tagos, ElvisL1ves, Little Nemo, Alleson, BrokenBriton, Ravenman, elucidator, Ryan\_Liam, and XT. Excuse me if I missed anyone. There’s ralph124c, and CoolHandCox whom I would say are on the Swiss Team. And then there is me. The original topic of discussion was on use of the word ‘victory’ in the context that General John Allen used it. The Gray Team turned that into many sub-debates mostly pushing the viewpoint that our side will lose or end in stalemate in Afghanistan and that General John Allen is out of his mind for uttering such nonsense. That led to sub-topics on comparing Afghanistan to Vietnam, which I believe I refuted since my responses to the Gray Team’s points were never addressed. And John Mace brings up a report about some flawed stats discovered about Taliban strikes and subsequently the ISAF is not going to use them anymore; so all is doomed for the good people of Afghanistan. But again I cited from John Mace’s own link, the explanation that the progress made of driving Taliban out of populated areas was the reason the stats were no longer applicable, and that the Afghan’s being on the front lines did not give ISAF a degree of accuracy. But the point rather justified what General Allen said. Genuine progress is being made with the Afghans providing security for their own people with continued ISAF backup until 2015. But not back up where ISAF troops are in harms way as much as in the past. John Mace walked away from that conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2013, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/185 "2013-03-30T17:22:41Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Yes, I can do that too. The benefit of dumping Osama Bin Laden’s body into an unknown burial at sea, combined with the kill and capture of thousands of insurgents, Taliban leaders, both in Afghanistan and across the border inside Pakistan, plus the training if nearly 400,000 Afghan Soldiers and Police to hold all gains in territory and major cites taken out of Taliban control, are benefits that are worth the cost to date as part of our inherent right to self-defense in retaliation for the horrendous attacks on US Soil perpetuated from that part if the world on September 11, 2001. -NF 086a Ok, noted. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Conducting a war requires proactive shaping of people, politics and events toward specific military and diplomatic objectives. I disagree with the suggestion that waiting patiently is all that we can do. I meant you and I have no choice but to see what becomes of Afghanistan, since (as far as I know), neither of us are in a position to influence it. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > We did not go to war in Afghanistan to put girls into schools. Well, you sure bring it up a lot. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Our primary and justified military objective continues to be to kill and destroy the enemy including those sympathetic and in material support of the enemy that attacked us on September 11,2001. The fact that the vast majority of Afghans wholly reject the Taliban’s archaic religious extremist restriction on girls being educated, is a positive result of removing the Taliban’s ability to enforce their will on Afghans that reject it. Though not necessarily evidence that the majority of Afghans are interested in legal equality for all. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > If the Afghan majority demanded that girls not be educated there would not be so many girls in school. Not necessarily, staying on the good side of a powerful foreign army can lead one to feign this or that belief as needed. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > There are many differences, but let’s call it the Gray Team consisting of John Mace, Dissonance, Tagos, ElvisL1ves, Little Nemo, Alleson, BrokenBriton, Ravenman, elucidator, Ryan\_Liam, and XT. Excuse me if I missed anyone. > > There’s ralph124c, and CoolHandCox whom I would say are on the Swiss Team. > > And then there is me. What team am I on? I want to order my windbreaker. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/186 "2013-03-30T17:32:17Z")
It just always amazes me how credulous you are. One good news article and you’re ready to declare victory. Let’s look at DoD’s own [reports:](http://www.defense.gov/news/1230_Report_final.pdf) > [@](#): > > **AFGHAN NATIONAL POLICE CAPACITY AND GROWTH** : The ANP remain significantly behind their ANA counterparts in developing the capabilities necessary to transfer to full Afghan lead by the end of 2014. . . . The ANP had more low-level recruits than necessary at the time, but was facing a shortage of officers and NCOs. . . . The ANP remains under-equipped as a result of fielding challenges, including battle loss replacement needs and the closure of Pakistani GLOCs earlier this year. . . . ANP logistics nodes at the regional level and below continue to require Coalition assistance in order to effectively provide sustainment. . . . Development of an ANP maintenance capability is underway, as poorly maintained equipment affects unit performance in the field. . . . > > [Afgan Border Police] continues to be hampered by illiteracy, lack of accountability, and corruption; these conditions are expected to endure beyond 2014. . . . > > One major impediment to [Afghan Uniformed Police] development in this area is the low capabilities of the Afghan justice sector. . . . the Afghan judiciary is in charge of criminal investigations and prosecution. In many areas, AUP personnel may arrest a suspect but are forced to release them after 72 hours due to a lack of support from the justice sector. I’m not saying that everything is a disaster there. The ANA is doing better. But the fundamental building blocks of a secure society simply don’t exist. Successful joint NATO-ANP raids mean very little when the goal is to have unilateral ANP operations. We’re 12 years into this, and a little more than one year to go, and we still haven’t taken off the training wheels. How you can crow about recent successes just demonstrates that you’re still taking every government-sponsored photo op, speech and press release at face value. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2013, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/187 "2013-03-30T21:02:26Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > We’re 12 years into this, and a little more than one year to go, and we still haven’t taken off the training wheels. -Today 01:32 PM 089p0132 Do you admit that Bush squandered six of those years by abandoning Afghnistan for the more exciting military and occupation adventure into Iraq? I mean we did not have the working policy or commitment to reversing Taliban momentum and training the the Afghan Army and police until Obama took office and was able to draw forces and hardware down from Iraq. Seriously, is it your position to quit toward the end of admitted demonstrable progress being made, because the end of 2014 is your drop dead date for the Afghans being ready without perhaps 10,000 foreign special forces providing backup and some trainers mostly for the Air Force and Helicopter training and maintenance etc on military equipment? I look at all information coming in, good and bad, and that is my point. There is more good than bad in terms of our troops losses, and things like 60,000 Afghan Commandos being put to the test every day are making headway at arresting or killing the Taliban leadership every single day for the past couple of years. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2013, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/188 "2013-03-30T21:29:26Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Hey, slightly different subject: do you believe the surge in Iraq “worked” and that the US won the war in Iraq? You asked me that back in post #023, and I responded gladly to your question. So did you have any disagreement with my views on the Iraq surge? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2013, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/189 "2013-03-30T23:01:15Z")
> [@](#): > > “It just always amazes me how credulous you are. One good news article and you’re ready to declare victory.” -Ravenman #186 03-30-2013 01:32 PM 089p0132. I assume you were refering to this ‘one good news article’ : > [@](#): > > Afghan, NATO forces kill more than 20 militants; Wednesday March 27, 2013, 12:35 PM; BY RAHIM FAIEZ; Associated Press - KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) — Afghan and NATO forces killed more than 20 insurgents in a joint operation in the eastern Logar province, military officials said Wednesday. [http://www.northjersey.com/news/inte...militants.html](http://www.northjersey.com/news/inte...militants.html) > -posted by Ntfldbw #183 03-28-2013 01:51 AM 087a0151 I see you have chosen declare me gullible for believing that this one report has readied me to declare victory. I have written nothing of the sort that this means we can declare victory. I posted this as you can see in post #183 in response to tagos’ declaration that our troops no longer trust the Afghans to go on joint operations with them, when in fact this is one joint operation out of probably two to five a day that our troops go on with Afghan forces for the past two years. Do you agree with tagos that our troops do not trust the Afghans so they no longer go on joint patrols? I do not see what not to believe about the AP report, if that is what you meant. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2013, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/190 "2013-03-31T13:53:17Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > You asked me that back in post #023, and I responded gladly to your question. So did you have any disagreement with my views on the Iraq surge? Not really. > [@](#): > > Do you agree with tagos that our troops do not trust the Afghans so they no longer go on joint patrols? I think it is very plausible that US troops may have taken a different approach to some Afghan forces, particularly in some areas. The article you quoted doesn’t seem to indicate which Afghan forces were involved in the raid. I think US/NATO cooperation with ANA special operations is probably still very tight, but cooperation with, say, a local police district in Helmand might be non-existent. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2013, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/191 "2013-03-31T14:53:22Z")
> [@](#): > > “Do you agree with tagos that our troops do not trust the Afghans so they no longer go on joint patrols?” -Ntfldbw #189 03-30-2013 07:01 PM 089p0701. > [@](#): > > I think it is very plausible that US troops may have taken a different approach to some Afghan forces, particularly in some areas. **The article you quoted doesn’t seem to indicate which Afghan forces were involved in the raid.** I think US/NATO cooperation with ANA special operations is probably still very tight, but cooperation with, say, a local police district in Helmand might be non-existent. -Ravenman #189 03-31-2013 09:53 AM 090a0953. Why would it? I was responding to tagos’ claim after studying Afghanistan for 37 years that our troops don’t cooperate with any Afghan forces. The Afghan national security police not requiring ISAF involvment is another sign of a good thing. ISAF and Afghan forces have greatly weakened (not eliminated) the insurgents ability to conduct major offensives on coalition and Afghan forces. And they have weakened the insurgents’ ability to intimidate and threaten and harm large segments of the population. Our plan, according to Obama in December 2009, was to ‘clear, hold and build’. The local police may still be in the ‘hold’ stage in some populated areas, but they are holding and ‘building’ has begun. It’s great that the police in many of these areas do not need foreign troops to back them up on a daily basis. That is the plan. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/192 "2013-03-31T19:55:24Z")
> [@](#): > > I think US/NATO cooperation with ANA special operations is probably still very tight, but cooperation with, say, a local police district in Helmand might be non-existent. -Ravenman #189 03-31-2013 09:53 AM 090a0953. Not so says this report. It is not about ‘Helmand Province’ but it is in reference to the one remaining troubled Provinces, namely Wardak. US Special Forces are doing a great job, working with ANP and these ALP. When the US Special Forces are not needed (See second cite of AP report below) by the ANP or ALP, that is a good thing, don’t you agree? > [@](#): > > Afghanistan Withdrawal: U.S. Leaves Nirkh, Key Base In Wardak Province AP By KIMBERLY DOZIER 03/30/13 03:50 PM ET EDT > > Currently, U.S. special operations teams go into an area, get to know the powerbrokers and tribesmen and then help train Afghan men selected by the locals. > > To join the Afghan local police, also called the “ALP,” recruits drawn from the local villages must be vouched for by village elders and then vetted by the Interior Ministry, including a background check by Afghan intelligence to rule out prior participation with the Taliban. If approved, they get rudimentary training on weapons safety and basic police skills and military tactics from the U.S. special operations forces partnered with them. > > The combined U.S. and Afghan forces are stationed at posts throughout Afghanistan intended to extend security and Afghan government influence to more remote, Taliban strongholds that are beyond the geographic range of the conventional Afghan army and regular uniformed police. > > Afghan and coalition officials say the back-country policemen have so eroded militant influence that they’ve become a top target for the Taliban. The bounty for killing a local policeman is $6,000 compared to $4,000 for a regular, uniformed policeman and $2,000 for an Afghan army soldier, one Afghan official said. He spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to disclose the information. > > The units are so popular with local security officials that Thomas has more requests to start new units than his 61 American teams can build. The Afghan interior ministry also has asked the U.S. to consider expanding the local police force by another 45,000 troops. Thomas said he now has to do his own analysis for Dunford, to determine if the coalition can afford to fund them and if Afghanistan needs that many. > > [HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News | HuffPost](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/30)…\_n\_2985012.html > [@](#): > > **Thomas points out that more than half of the 21,000-strong local police force – some 12,000 policemen – are now overseen by the Afghan interior ministry with no American special operation forces present.** -AP By KIMBERLY DOZIER 03/30/13 03:50 PM ET EDT ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2013, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/193 "2013-03-31T22:06:58Z")
Geezus, it’s like you take news entirely out of context: > [@](#): > > The transfer of control in Nirkh district of Wardak province — a gateway and staging area for militant attacks on the capital — ends a rocky episode in the strained relationship between the U.S. and Karzai. The Afghan president had angrily insisted that U.S. forces leave Nirkh over the alleged torture, kidnapping and summary execution of militant suspects there — charges U.S. officials firmly denied. . . . “American special operations forces are integral in the defense of Wardak from now until the foreseeable future,” Thomas said in the interview at Camp Integrity, the special operations compound on the outskirts of Kabul. That’s not quite the rousing success you make it out to be. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2013, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/194 "2013-03-31T23:21:24Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Geezus, it’s like you take news entirely out of context: ~~The transfer of control in Nirkh district of Wardak province~~ > > That’s not quite the rousing success you make it out to be. -Today, 06:06 PM 090p0606 Why must you exaggerate such things as alleging I posted this report as some kind of ‘rousing success’? I posted it in response to your questioning whether US Special Forces were working with Afghan police. As far as success goes, however, I suggest you re-read the entire report. > [@](#): > > “As we pledged, our forces have transitioned Nirkh district to Afghan national security forces and they have now assumed full responsibility for security,” U.S. Gen. Joseph Dunford, the top commander of American and NATO forces in Afghanistan, said in a statement. He said the rest of Wardak would transition “over time.” And this: > [@](#): > > U.S. special operations forces will continue to visit the Afghan team in Nirkh, and work throughout the rest of the province, said Maj. Gen. Tony Thomas, the top U.S. special operations commander in Afghanistan, told The Associated Press in an interview on Saturday. > > “American special operations forces are integral in the defense of Wardak from now until the foreseeable future,” Thomas said in the interview at Camp Integrity, the special operations compound on the outskirts of Kabul. > > The Afghan president had originally demanded the U.S. special operations forces pull out of the entire province, but he scaled down his sweeping demand to just Nirkh district after negotiations with Dunford and other U.S. officials. And this: > [@](#): > > Karzai was eventually convinced to accept a more gradual transition for the country overall, just as he was with Wardak, with U.S. special operations forces leaving the villages sometime this summer. > > “The last teams will go in this summer and from that point out, when we culminate (handover) an area, we’ll bring the teams out,” Thomas said. > > “More importantly, we’re setting up … training centers that are run by Afghans,” Thomas said. \*\*“We’re working ourselves out of a job.” \*\* US Special Forces ‘working themselves out of a job’ including in Wardak Province is good news to me. Would you prefer we stay longer because the Afghans can’t do it themselves? I notice that I received no challenge to my intended purpose in citing this recent report. That the US Special Forces are in fact working closely with both the Conventional Police Forces and the Local Police Forces. Wardak has been one tense problem area between the ISAF and the sometimes lunacy of Karzai. I am aware of what is going on there… and this is not a bad outcome that you have cited. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/195 "2013-04-01T00:24:02Z")
> [@](#): > > Geezus, it’s like you take news entirely out of context: > > {cite\>} The transfer of control \*\*in Nirkh district \*\*of Wardak province — a gateway and staging area for militant attacks on the capital — \*\*ends a rocky episode \*\*in the strained relationship between the U.S. and Karzai. > > \*\*“American special operations forces are integral in the defense of Wardak from now until the foreseeable future,” Thomas said \*\*in the interview at Camp Integrity, the special operations compound on the outskirts of Kabul. {\>cite} –Posted by Ravenman #193 03-31-2013 06:06 PM 090p0606. You need to inform us as to why \*\*‘ending a rocky episode’ \*\*between US Special Forces and Karzai is in your view in some kind of context that makes it bad news. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/196 "2013-04-01T16:25:31Z")
The Special Forces got kicked out by Karzai. Talk about this being indicative of an orderly transition signifying the maturity of the ANSF or the coming of peace to Wardak Province is at best window dressing, and at worst BS. It’s like someone getting fired from a job and then claiming that he has bravely chosen to pursue his own initiatives, or whatever. Let’s just be honest with ourselves and acknowledge that getting fired is not a positive development, and having Special Forces kicked out (probably for spurious reasons) of one of the most dangerous areas of the country is not a good-news item. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/197 "2013-04-01T16:53:56Z")
Wouldn’t it be easier and cheaper to simply pay off the local warlords? I read that it costs us something like $15 million to kill a militant. If we simply bribed them, we could get by for a lot less. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/198 "2013-04-01T17:11:07Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > The Special Forces got kicked out by Karzai. Talk about this being indicative of an orderly transition signifying the maturity of the ANSF or the coming of peace to Wardak Province is at best window dressing, and at worst BS. Did you read what you yourself posted? > [@](#): > > “American special operations forces are integral in the defense of Wardak from now until the foreseeable future,” Thomas said in the interview at Camp Integrity, the special operations compound on the outskirts of Kabul. {\>cite} –Posted by Ravenman #193 03-31-2013 06:06 PM 090p0606. Our Special Forces were not kicked out of Wardak province. And there may have been a speed up of ‘the transfer of control in Nirkh district of Wardak province’ from the ALP to the Afghan Interior Ministry, but nowhere in the report does it say the ALP are not ready yet. And the report also tells us that US Special Forces will continue to monitor the situation in Nirkh District as they continue to oversee the transfer of ALP to full Afghan Government Control. Also, did you see what I posted earlier? > [@](#): > > Quote: > Thomas points out that more than half of the 21,000-strong local police force – some 12,000 policemen – are now overseen by the Afghan interior ministry with no American special operation forces present. -AP By KIMBERLY DOZIER 03/30/13 03:50 PM ET EDT. I don’t know the numbers of police that were transferred in Nirkh District, but I doubt that Karzai’s flare-up over that area was a tiny blip in the entire orderly transition process that has been going on for over a year and will continue as planned into the forseable future. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/199 "2013-04-01T17:23:11Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Wouldn’t it be easier and cheaper to simply pay off the local warlords? I read that it costs us something like $15 million to kill a militant. If we simply bribed them, we could get by for a lot less. Do you have a list of enough trustable Warlords that could lead a national securty ooeration that could kill and capture insurgents at the pace that the Afghan Security Forces with ISAF backup, mostly for air support and troop transport, have been doing for the past two years? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/200 "2013-04-01T17:43:32Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I don’t know the numbers of police that were transferred in Nirkh District, **but I doubt that Karzai’s flare-up over that area was a tiny blip in the entire orderly transition process that has been going on for over a year** and will continue as planned into the forseable future. Aaaand the five o’clock follies continue. I swear, this is like debating the Iraqi information minister. > [@](#): > > And there may have been a speed up of ‘the transfer of control in Nirkh district of Wardak province’ from the ALP to the Afghan Interior Ministry, but nowhere in the report does it say the ALP are not ready yet. . . . Also, did you see what I posted earlier? The 1230 report I linked to earlier as an assessment of ALP. Let me highlight some assessments: > [@](#): > > Despite significant successes, the ALP program also faces challenges that stem in part from heavy dependence on U.S. government funding and USSOF training, mentorship, and oversight. Achieving the authorized force of 30,000 ALP personnel will challenge the capacity of SOJTF-A forces, and may require additional support from USSOF and conventional force enablers. ALP must also overcome personal, ethnic and tribal tensions. In plain English, we don’t have enough troops to train all the ALP that we want. Maybe that’s why half of the ALP are not partnered with anyone? > [@](#): > > The ALP program also faces logistical challenges. Logistical resupply is hampered by many variables including a low Afghan literacy rate, a lack of understanding their own supply process, and distances to Regional Logistic Centers (RLC). These challenges are compounded by difficult terrain, weather, as well as varying degrees of corruption. These factors threaten to undermine the legitimacy of the Afghan government in rural areas and the durability of the program. Summary: uh oh. [quote] The proliferation of independent non-GIRoA sanctioned militias, which operate outside the VSO/ALP framework, threaten to undermine the legitimacy and progress of the program. Although limited in number, these unauthorized organizations threaten to damage the ALP “brand,” especially when they inappropriately use the ALP name to further their own interests./quote]Summary: uh oh. > [@](#): > > Underscoring the effectiveness of the program, the Taliban Senior Leadership (TBSL) have identified infiltration of the ALP as a primary objective to weaken the program. Summary: oh, crap. > [@](#): > > To mitigate the risk of insider threats, SOJTF-A has taken active measures to re-validate all 16,474 ALP personnel. This revalidation process is currently 52 percent complete, with less than one percent removed due to nefarious activities or counter-intelligence concerns. Summary: at least we’re doing something about it. I await your comments on what a smashing success this CI effort is going to be, and how the ALP are terrific institutions that are smashing the Taliban to pieces and guaranteeing democracy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554.md?page=11)