# US General uses "V" word in Afghan War - Only 4 US Combat Deaths since Jan 1. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 10, 2013, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554 "2013-03-10T14:23:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2013, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/121 "2013-03-15T02:40:22Z")
Yea, kinda unusual for any story that begins with “villagers rebel” to end well for the villagers. But hopefully this will be an exception. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2013, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/122 "2013-03-15T06:35:27Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > I fear this will not end well. I sincerely hope I’m wrong. > [@Simplicio](#): > > Yea, kinda unusual for any story that begins with “villagers rebel” to end well for the villagers. But hopefully this will be an exception. The trend the past three years has gone in favor of the villagers. And I am saying trend. The trend is what must be paid attention to, to see that there are signs of progress for the ISAF coalition and for the people of Afghanistan. There has been and there will be major eruptions of violence as the Taliban continue to unleash their fury at the civilized world, by taking it out on Afghan security forces and police when they can, but mostly they are now killing their fellow Afghans and that is fellow Muslims. The significance of this is where this particular eruption is taking place. More from the original cited report: > [@](#): > > Abrams said the uprising in the Panjwai district of Kandahar province began about one month ago, and at this point the Taliban have been “kicked out” of all but about four villages - not at the initiative of Afghan or coalition troops but that of the villagers. > > “I suspect the rest of those villages will fall here in short order,” Abrams said. > > Abrams said Afghan officials told him there were two main triggers of the uprising. > > One was the arrival about six weeks ago of a new district police chief with “a renewed energy, vigour, an offensive mindset.” > > The second was the beating of a villager by Taliban fighters who, when reprimanded by the village elder, proceeded to humiliate the elder. > > “That was the straw that broke the camel’s back,” Abrams said. > > There have been local anti-Taliban uprisings elsewhere in Afghanistan in recent years - most notably in Andar district of the eastern province of Ghazni last year - but they have not developed into anything close to a national movement. > > A distinguishing feature of the Panjwai uprising is its location in a traditional Taliban stronghold. > > Panjwai has been the scene of fierce battles between Taliban and US-led coalition forces for the past six years. > > Mullah Omar, who founded the Taliban movement in the early 1990s, is originally from nearby Zhari district. > > “It’s been a long-time coming,” Abrams said. “But in short, the people have said, ‘Enough is enough,’ and they become fed up with the Taliban. They have asked for the support of their government.” The military strategy that was put into effect shortly after Obama took over as Commander in Chief was counter-insurgency with a plan to clear, hold and build with a very strong emphasis on the ‘clear’ part to wipe out Taliban leadership with night raids, and with doing as little harm to ‘villagers’ as possible. The **‘clear’** part is over in most of Afhanistan. The\*\* ‘hold’ \*\*part was based around training the Afghans themselves to be in the lead. That has pretty much gone on as planned and as scheduled, with of course set backs and tragedy along the way with about 70 incidents of green on blue attacks. But the green on blue attacks must be viewed as a matter of US and our coalition troop’s lives saved because over 300,000 Afghans are in the lead in patrols and raids and other security operations. Taliban fighters have given up during the past few years, and a website put out by NATO/ ISAF issues reports that have consistently reported the capturing and killing for the past two years, at least a few to about ten Taliban leaders and commanders each and every week. (I have never totaled up an average but the reporting has been steady and consistent as the recent ones indicate. They have recently begun to taper off, which could be an indication that captured or killed commanders and weapons and IED facilitators are not being replenished or replaced. I’ve put together a the reports from [http://www.isaf.nato.int/article/isaf-releases/51.html](http://www.isaf.nato.int/article/isaf-releases/51.html) of kills and captures that have taken place that last month or two… > [@](#): > > ISAF Joint Command Operational Update, March 6 - KABUL, Afghanistan - An Afghan and coalition force killed one insurgent and wounded two others, including a Taliban commander, during a security operation in Giro district, Ghazni province, yesterday. > > ISAF Joint Command Operational Update, March 1 - KABUL, Afghanistan – Afghan and coalition forces killed Taliban leader, Sadiq, and wounded another insurgent during an operation in Nahr-e Saraj district, Helmand province, Feb. 28. > > ISAF Joint Command Operational Update, February 28 - KABUL, Afghanistan - An Afghan and coalition security force arrested a Haqqani high-profile attack facilitator and detained two other insurgents during an operation in Pul-e Alam district, Logar province, today. > > Afghan Security Forces Assume Leadership on Security in Four Districts of Ghor. > Chaghcharan, February 24, 2013 – The Afghan National Security Forces assumed yesterday the leadership on security operations in four districts of the western province of Ghor. The four districts - Chaghcharan, Lal Wa Sarjangal, Dowlatyar and Chaharsada – are inhabited by over 80% of the population in the province. > > ISAF Joint Command Operational Update, February 26 - KABUL, Afghanistan - Afghan and coalition forces confirmed today the death of a Taliban leader, Anwar, during an operation in Hisarak district, Nangarhar province, Sunday. > > ISAF Joint Command Operational Update, February 24 - KABUL, Afghanistan – Afghan and coalition forces arrested a senior Taliban leader and three other insurgents during an operation in Khugyani district, Nangarhar province, Feb 24. > > ISAF Joint Command operational update, Feb 4 - KABUL, Afghanistan (Feb. 4, 2013) – An Afghan and coalition security force arrested a Taliban improvised explosive device facilitator in Nad ‘Ali district, Helmand province, today. > > ISAF Joint Command operational update, Feb 3 - KABUL, Afghanistan (Feb. 3, 2013) – An Afghan and coalition security force arrested a Taliban improvised explosive device attack coordinator in Khanabad district, Kunduz province, Friday. > > ISAF Joint Command operational update, Jan 30 - KABUL, Afghanistan (Jan. 30, 2013) – An Afghan and coalition security force arrested two Taliban leaders in Nahr-e Saraj district, Helmand province, today. > > ISAF Joint Command operational update, Jan 29 - KABUL, Afghanistan (Jan. 29, 2013) – An Afghan and coalition security force arrested a Taliban leader in Arghandab district, Kandahar province, today. > > ISAF Joint Command operational update, Jan 28 - KABUL, Afghanistan (Jan. 28, 2013) – An Afghan and coalition security force arrested a Taliban leader in Baghlan-e Jadid district, Baghlan province, today. > > ISAF Joint Command operational update, Jan 27- KABUL, Afghanistan (Jan. 27, 2013) – An Afghan and coalition security force arrested a Taliban leader in Lashkar Gah district, Helmand province, yesterday. > > ISAF Joint Command operational update, Jan. 25 - KABUL, Afghanistan (Jan. 25, 2013) – Afghan and coalition forces killed al-Qaeda associated Taliban leader, Wali, during a security operation in Dangam district, Kunar province, yesterday. > > ISAF Joint Command operational update, Jan 24 - KABUL, Afghanistan (Jan. 24, 2013) – An Afghan and coalition security force arrested a Haqqani facilitator in Sabari district, Khost province, today. > > ISAF Joint Command operational update, Jan 22 - KABUL, Afghanistan (Jan. 22, 2013) – An Afghan and coalition security force arrested a Haqqani facilitator in Pul-e ‘Alam district, Logar province, today. > > ISAF Joint Command operational update, Jan 21 - KABUL, Afghanistan (Jan. 21, 2013) – An Afghan and coalition force killed Taliban leader, Muhibullah Jan, and his subordinate Taliban facilitator, Malawi Noorullah, during a security operation in Khanabad district, Kunduz province, today. > > ISAF Joint Command operational update, Jan 20 - KABUL, Afghanistan (Jan. 20, 2013) – An Afghan and coalition security force arrested a Taliban leader in Zurmat district, Paktiya province, today. > > ISAF Joint Command operational update, Jan 19 - KABUL, Afghanistan (Jan. 19, 2013) – During a security operation in Sherzad district, Nangarhar province, today, an Afghan and coalition force killed a local Taliban leader, Qari Sayed Wali, and arrested a second Taliban leader. The villagers have the numbers. The highest estimate I have ever seen of the number of Taliban fighters and leaders was 40,000. The population of Afghanistan around 30,000,000. Afghan military and police forces have grown from less than 100,000 in 2008 to approaching 400,000. When the villagers can see that the national government’s security forces and police have been ridding the countryside of Taliban leaders and IED planters, they will rise up as they did in this report and drive the Taliban out of their midst. The fighters will likely surrender. And the Leaders who survive and escape may go hide in the lawless regions of Pakistan, but they will for a long time be wondiing when a hellfire missile come crashing through their mud and rock terrorist hut and kill them. This is not over by any means, and Afghanistan will not become a paradice anytime soon. This is a brutal conflict where civilians end up the worst of it. But the trend is not leading to a return of the Taliban ever again. And that was the goal of the US Military and diplomatic mission in Afghanistan. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2013, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/123 "2013-03-15T09:29:21Z")
And we’re taking this at face value, from the force that has just declared 'victory, without any on the ground or independent reportage? Is it possible there’s a little wishful projection on the part of those who so badly want to believe? ---
**Author:** ![Kepler1571](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/db5fbb/32.png) [@Kepler1571](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kepler1571)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2013, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/124 "2013-03-15T10:30:10Z")
We’re about to leave, so the warlord musical chairs game is heating up. Whether they are Taliban or not is much less relevant than ethnic and personal connections. What’s going on does not map to our concepts. It’s both a longer game (decades long cycles of vendetta) and shorter (the fortunes of local exploitation, changing by the day). ---
**Author:** ![Kepler1571](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/db5fbb/32.png) [@Kepler1571](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kepler1571)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2013, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/125 "2013-03-15T10:32:29Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > And we’re taking this at face value, from the force that has just declared 'victory, without any on the ground or independent reportage? > > Is it possible there’s a little wishful projection on the part of those who so badly want to believe? Marketing. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2013, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/126 "2013-03-15T11:15:10Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > But the trend is not leading to a return of the Taliban ever again. And that was the goal of the US Military and diplomatic mission in Afghanistan. Not according to [The Department of Defense](http://www.defense.gov/News/NewsArticle.aspx?id=3066) > [@](#): > > “Our goal in Afghanistan is to help the people of that country defeat the terrorists and establish a stable, moderate, democratic state that respects the rights of its citizens, governs its territory effectively, and is a reliable ally in this war against extremists and terrorists,” Bush said. [Blasphemy laws in Afganistan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law_in_Afghanistan) > [@](#): > > Afghanistan uses Sharia as its justification for punishing blasphemy. The punishments are among the harshest in the world. Afghanistan uses its law against blasphemy to persecute religious minorities, dissenters, academics, and journalists. [Hamid Karzai under fire on Afghan women’s rights](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/9130508/Hamid-Karzai-under-fire-on-Afghan-womens-rights.html) > [@](#): > > Last Friday, the Council, Afghanistan’s highest Islamic authority, issued a non-binding edict saying that women were worth less than men – a statement released by Mr Karzai’s office and then endorsed by the president on Tuesday. > > “Men are fundamental and women are secondary,” it said, adding women should avoid “mingling with strange men in various social activities such as education, in bazaars, in offices and other aspects of life”. > [@](#): > > Mr Karzai, who has formally outlawed violence and discrimination against women, caused consternation on Tuesday by publicly endorsing the statement, > [@](#): > > Despite Mr Karzai signing legislation to eliminate violence and discrimination against women, implementation is poor to non-existent. > > According to aid group Oxfam, 87 per cent of Afghan women say they have suffered from physical, sexual or psychological abuse or been forced into an arranged marriage. This place has yet to hold a non-fraudulent ‘election’. You don’t get to redefine our ‘goals’ or the definition of ‘victory’ to mean ‘whatever things look like when we cut and run’. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2013, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/127 "2013-03-15T11:38:01Z")
“This happens all the time.” was the first response by Tagos. It is a report. And the report is undated, and is about whether the many uprisings of the past meant that the Afghan Central Government would be supported as a result. There is no information in what Tagos cited that disputes the original post of this thread. They acknowledge that all prior uprisings had never jelled into a national movement. The significance of the uprising that I cited is the location. It is in the stomping grounds of Mullah Omar. The other significance is that if this uprising holds, and the villagers, and the Afghan Police Chief keeps the Taliban at bay as fewer and fewer foriegn troops remain on Afghan soil, then the Taliban has evidently been weakened enough to hold elections in 12 months, and the people can vote for new leadership in Afghanistan. That is what the ISAF coalition have been driving for… Get to that election with foreign troops out of the frontlines and in a support role. Tagos repeats a simplistic one-sided view of the events taking place in the former Taliban stronghold and the birthplace of the Taliban movement twenty years ago. But I’ve come to see how Tagos operates. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2013, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/128 "2013-03-15T13:03:00Z")
Can you explain how this debate is different from the last debate you started-- the one we all gave up on a few days ago? ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2013, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/129 "2013-03-15T13:10:27Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > **Afghan villagers rebel against Taliban means what?** [I’d have to call it a tremendous setback; I thought Victory had already been declared.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=684765) Or perhaps you meant a different V word had been used by a US general with regards to Afghanistan, but I hardly think calling the situation in Afghanistan “vagina” is appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2013, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/130 "2013-03-15T13:59:26Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > “This happens all the time.” was the first response by Tagos. It is a report. And the report is undated, and is about whether the many uprisings of the past meant that the Afghan Central Government would be supported as a result. > > There is no information in what Tagos cited that disputes the original post of this thread. > > They acknowledge that all prior uprisings had never jelled into a national movement. > > The significance of the uprising that I cited is the location. > It is in the stomping grounds of Mullah Omar. > The other significance is that if this uprising holds, and the villagers, and the Afghan Police Chief keeps the Taliban at bay as fewer and fewer foriegn troops remain on Afghan soil, > > then the Taliban has evidently been weakened enough to hold elections in 12 months, and the people can vote for new leadership in Afghanistan. > > That is what the ISAF coalition have been driving for.. > > Get to that election with foreign troops out of the frontlines and in a support role. > Tagos repeats a simplistic one-sided view of the events taking place in the former Taliban stronghold and the birthplace of the Taliban movement twenty years ago. > > But I’ve come to see how Tagos operates. I operate in the real world. You operate in the one where there is the possibility free and fair elections in Afghanistan and the police aren’t just the kiddie-raping bandit allies of whatever local strongman is shaking down the area. The colour of the sky in my world is blue. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2013, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/131 "2013-03-15T18:00:49Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > [I’d have to call it a tremendous setback; I thought Victory had already been declared.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=684765) General Allen was clear in saying ‘this is what victory looks like’ to Afghans, that are willing to fight, and that certainly do not need to be told that some 37 year Afghan scholar in the USA and by others with no physicsl skin in the game, that their cause is lost and something way fewer than 40,000 Taliban cannot be beaten by ten million, so you might as well go find a Taliban Commander and kiss his arse, and submit to whatever that Taliban scum tells them to do. General Allen did not declare victory as done after WWII. There will never be a formal declaration of victory in a COIN operation. You’ve set up a straw man based upon an inapplicable definition of victory and are proud to be knocking him down. Read what he said, in context and for what purpose: > [@](#): > > Allen, who directed ISAF’s transfer of most security across the country to the Afghan army and police, delivered an emotional speech directed largely at Afghans, stressing their role in taking over all security by the middle of the year. > > “Afghan forces (are) defending Afghan people and enabling the government of this country to serve its citizens,” he said. “This is victory. This is what winning looks like.” Allen’s words were greeted with enthusiastic applause. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2013, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/132 "2013-03-15T18:07:59Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Can you explain how this debate is different from the last debate you started-- the one we all gave up on a few days ago? I’m not seeing the difference either. I’ve merged the threads. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2013, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/133 "2013-03-16T19:00:09Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m not seeing the difference either. I’ve merged the threads. Tagos posted the following and I have several questions I’d like to ask about the point Tagos tried to make with it, but this post #006 from the thread “Afghan villagers rebel against Taliban means what” was lost in the merge to this thread. > [@](#): > > #6 March 14 or 15, 06:20 AM tagos > > “This happens all the time.” > > Quote: There are numerous reports of local uprisings against the Taliban taking place in Afghanistan. There is also a lot of confusion about what this means - with many interpretations on the causes and long-term effects of these uprisings. Some optimistic observers are hoping that these “popular uprisings” will diminish support for the Taliban and extend Afghan central government influence into Taliban areas. Others have adopted a more pragmatic view that these anti-Taliban uprisings are purely local and have little to do with supporting the Afghan government. > > Quote: Just because a group of villages unite against the Taliban does not mean that it supports the central Afghan government. In most cases the people opposing the Taliban are just as disenchanted with the corrupt and predatory central government and its’ inability to provide services and security. > It means that locally the Taliban in the area over-stepped the mark and upset the local power holders. Which is good. But it does no good if the kleptocrats in Kabul cannot or will not step in to provide justice and security. Handing the place over to one of their looter allies and the kiddie raping, bandit-police force doesn’t win hearts and minds. > > And on the other side of the coin is this. > > Afghans hold anti US rally > > Quote: More than five hundred men marched through the capital of Afghanistan’s restive Wardak province on Tuesday in an outburst of anger against U.S. special forces accused of overseeing torture and killings in the area. > > Shouting “Death to America”, “Death to Obama” and “Death to special forces”, the protesters called for the immediate withdrawal of the American soldiers and threatened to join the Taliban if their demand was not met. > > \ > > “If the situation remains like this, this province will collapse very soon,” said protester Haji Abdul Qadim. “People will join the insurgency very soon because of the abuses of these forces.” > If there was a proper, respected, functioning Afghan government this might all be positive. But there isn’t. > > Afghan government could collapse > > Quote: “There is a real risk that the regime in Kabul could collapse upon NATO’s withdrawal,” said Candace Rondeaux, the ICG’s senior Afghanistan analyst. “The window for remedial action is closing fast.” > > The report - “Afghanistan: The Long, Hard Road to the 2014 Transition” - said the country was on course for another set of fraudulent elections after the chaotic presidential and parliamentary polls in 2009 and 2010. > > A repeat could undermine what little hope remains for stability after the Afghan government takes full responsibility for security from US-led NATO forces, the report by the respected Brussels-based group said. > > Quote: “The Afghan army and police are overwhelmed and underprepared for the transition,” said Rondeaux. “Another botched election and resultant unrest would push them to breaking point.” > > The Western-backed government of President Hamid Karzai and the parliament have failed to take any serious steps towards preparing for a clean vote, she said. > > “Karzai seems more interested in perpetuating his own power by any means rather than ensuring credibility of the political system and long-term stability in the country.” > Not to mention the impending economic collapse when we withdraw and the trough the kleptocrats are wallowing in dries up. > > The Taliban will proably be back and quite probably with our under-the-table blessing in return for them kicking out foreign jihadi’s. In the end we don’t care who rules Afghanistan and we don’t care what happens to the people. We only care about Al-Q and its franchises getting a foothold. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2013, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/134 "2013-03-17T03:39:05Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > I fear this will not end well. I sincerely hope I’m wrong. I fear this won’t end at all. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2013, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/135 "2013-03-17T04:07:09Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I fear this won’t end at all. US, NATO and all the ISAF forces are seeing the transition to end happening right now. There is no use remaining in denial of it. There is never going to be a day when Victory will be declared. But it certainly is possible to imagine, because of thinks we are seeing, the Afghans themselves, overcoming the generations of war and violence and oppression that has dominated Afghan’s lives for centuries. It won’t happen at the end of 2014, perhaps not completely before 2024, but if Afghans, such as the villagers that are rising up against the Taliban, as is the case in the Taliban’s heartland, then the ‘trend’ is heading in the direction in favor of the good people of Afghanistan, not for the rotten and evil ones. You need to seek information from all sources but not listen only to the naysayers. The naysayers are losing ground with the Taliban and al Qaeda in the part of the world. Slowley, but steadily. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2013, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/136 "2013-03-17T16:11:09Z")
You appear to be testing the boundary fence between optimism and fantasy with some vigour. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2013, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/137 "2013-03-18T18:45:06Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > You appear to be testing the boundary fence between optimism and fantasy with some vigour. How so? I have not wished away the serious problems, dangers and issues the Afghans yet face. Every single optimistic condition I bring up is based upon current reality on the ground in Afghanistan and in the lawless regions of Pakistan, and no one here has advised that the conditions presented have come from flawed or unreliable sources. Causes for optimism: Despite about 70 deadly Green on Blue attacks there are now close to 400,000 Afghans enrolled and trained into the Afghan National Government and Police Services. There effectively taking the lead in nearly all of the most populated areas of Afghanistan. An uprising agaist the Taliban in a province known as a long time Taliban stronghold has occurred and has the potential to hold and spread to other areas. Many previous uprisings in other parts of the country the past couple years are holding, as foreign troops withdraw. There are nearly 3,000,000 girls attending school, in defiance if Taliban law against it. in 2001 there were only a handful of girls attending school. The Taliban are not able to attack foreign troops with their weapon of choice as much as before. IED, or improvised roadside explosive devices are way down - to five killed coalition troop’s this year. Surveillance technology has contributed in part to this reduction. There’s more but you should get the point that the naysayers are the ones cherry picking the negatives and fantasizing that only a bad and disastrous outcome will be the destiny for thirty million Afghans because of the brutish and cruel power that something less than 40,000 Taliban have over the lives of the war weary Afghans and the publics from all the nations that have given it a go at making things better inna long troubled part of the world. It seems we could at least focus equally on the fantasies of the doom and gloomers that there are no indications coming from the war zone to justify even a touch of optimism after all that has been fought and sacrificed. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/138 "2013-03-18T19:01:45Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > There’s more but you should get the point that the naysayers are the ones cherry picking the negatives and fantasizing that only a bad and disastrous outcome will be the destiny for thirty million Afghans because of the brutish and cruel power that something less than 40,000 Taliban have over the lives of the war weary Afghans and the publics from all the nations that have given it a go at making things better inna long troubled part of the world. Recall what brought the Taliban into power in the first place: resistance to a corrupt, hated government propped up by a foreign power. You’re posing a binary outcome here: either a stable, legitimate, democratic government under Karzai or his successor; or a return to Taliban rule. Why should those be the only outcomes in play? Afghanistan could return to tribal or warlord rule, or brutish anarchy, or any number of outcomes. > [@](#): > > It seems we could at least focus equally on the fantasies of the doom and gloomers that there are no indications coming from the war zone to justify even a touch of optimism after all that has been fought and sacrificed. A “touch” of optimism is all there is, sadly. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2013, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/139 "2013-03-18T19:27:12Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > You’re posing a binary outcome here: either a stable, legitimate, democratic government under Karzai or his successor; or a return to Taliban rule. If you read what I have posted, I recognize what the ISAF coalition has evolved toward. The idea of hybrid governance. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Anyway here is a good link on the topic of Hybrid Governance; a pragmatic perspectin. > > [http://www.carnegieendowment.org/files/warlords\_as\_bureaucrats.pdf](http://www.carnegieendowment.org/files/warlords_as_bureaucrats.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2013, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554/140 "2013-03-18T19:40:32Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > If you read what I have posted, I recognize what the ISAF coalition has evolved toward. The idea of hybrid governance. _That’s_ what you’re so optimistic about? Best case scenario, then, is a weak central government that lasts a decade or two, until one warlord or another, or a faction of them, feel like they’re getting a raw deal and overthrow it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-general-uses-v-word-in-afghan-war-only-4-us-combat-deaths-since-jan-1/652554.md?page=8)