# US image worsens **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 2, 2003, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207 "2003-10-02T20:58:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2003, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207/241 "2003-10-09T03:04:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > Sometimes one group is right and everyone else is wrong. People who argued that the US pullout from Viet Nam would lead to a bloodbath were right, and the anti-war protestors were wrong. Ah, **Shodan** , this is just one interpretation of that history. Another would be: (1) that there was quite a bloodbath going on when the U.S. was napalming people and destroying villages. (The VietCong, of course, were doing the same, although with less advanced weaponry.) (2) that the U.S. intervention there, and even moreso in Cambodia, helped the most radical sadistic elements gain power over the more moderate ones. It is hard to imagine a scenario under which a government more sadistic than the Khmer Rouge faction that came to power would have come to power in the absence of U.S. intervention. And, although I’ll admit my history of that whole conflict is weak, I think one can probably argue that considerably rosier scenarios were possible if the U.S. hadn’t started bombing Cambodia. In short, you are basically drawing conclusions that you cannot support. The fact is that the U.S. intervention in that region may well have changed things for the worst in very similar ways that those of us worry the U.S. carelessly brandishing its power now will do. I.e., it gave strength to the worst of our enemies and radicalized and made more violent an already-bad situation. I guess those who learned the wrong lessons from Vietnam are truly condemned to repeat the mistakes of the past. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2003, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207/242 "2003-10-09T03:21:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > Churchill was right about Hitler, and Neville Chamberlain and his supporters were wrong. In case you missed it, the way the U.S. military rolled into Baghdad and crushed the “elite” Republican guard helped show just how great the analogy was between Saddam and a militarized Germany under Hitler! And, in fact, this was largely the argument made by the anti-war movement beforehand…i.e., that it takes more than a wet dream of being Hitler to be Hitler. It also takes the military power to be a threat. The only thing we have learned about that power since the war is that it was a lot less than was imagined even by some of us who were always skeptical about the claims of vast amounts of chemical and biological weapons. > [@](#): > > Sometimes, we don’t care what you think. We are going to do what we think is right, and not concern ourselves with a lot of whining afterwards. “The dogs bark, but the caravan marches on.” > > Sorry. You can just get used to it. I must say, attitudes like these almost make me hate Americans. And, then I remember that we are not all as smug, arrogant, and self-righteous as this! [Please, please, non-Americans who read this thread, don’t think of this as typical of American thought!] ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2003, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207/243 "2003-10-09T03:49:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by flonks \* > \*\*Cite? > > France was and still is the world’s first tourist destination ([Cite](http://www.netcapricorn.com/frenchmarket.htm),[Cite](http://www.dansville.k12.ny.us/High%20School/Teacher%20Pages/PWASHER/french/Promotion%20of%20French.htm)) > and even more the first destination for Americans ([Cite](http://www.cayennecom.com/articles/sticky_stuff.htm)). While it’s true, that France lost 10% of it’s tourists this year, for the Americans it remains the primary destination. > > I had an American family over this summer in Lyon (I don’t need to be French to live in France), and they didn’t object to visit France. Apparently, not all Americans behave like little kids (Grudge, grudge). \*\* America’s opinion of France has [plummeted.](http://www.gallup.com/poll/releases/pr030926.asp) Of that, you can be certain. The question is, what can France do to repair its image in our eyes? ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2003, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207/244 "2003-10-09T04:14:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Daisy Cutter \* > \*\* The main enemy are the islamic terrorists and their supporters. I could care less how many there are of them out there. They are wrong, they are evil, and they will be defeated, and they deserve to die… It appears that in 2003, our main enemies happen to be islamic terrorists, and they will also be defeated/killed, just like their evil counterparts in WW2. > > Big deal, who gives a rats ass about what that mass murdering idiot thinks. > > They are the ones currently hiding, probably wetting their pants, while we are seeking them out, so that they may meet our form for American justice. A daisy cutter dropped on their heads is a good form for justice. > > 😛 \*\* Sun Tzu said know thy enemy… and obviously most war supporters neither know their enemy or even CARE to know the enemy. Even worse you then compare Islamic Terrorists to Fascist Germany and Imperial Japan… so you even compare your enemies wrongly. This way its no wonder the US will never win terrorism. Its like trying to use insecticide to kill rodents… the “exterminator” will fall sick before the rats ever do. ``` If you don't care about what Osama Bin Laden thinks you have no means of understanding his objectives... I wont even spend typing time trying to explain to you why Bush is the best thing that ever happened to Osama... You say many allies and certain opposed nations... how about you switch it around ? Certain allies and many opposed nations. Or did you buy into the French are bad thingy ? Check this other thread with the 3 most common misconceptions that americans have: [Another Good Dope Thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=215792) As for the hiding part... do you think suicidal terrorists would be scared by a stupid Daisy Cutter bomb ? At least they seem to strike with a purpose and clarity of mission. Americans just lash back rabidly. If you call that American Justice its your rose tinted glasses.... Lastly... you keep saying WE GOOD... THEY BAD... ISRAEL GOOD... ARAFAT BAD... ME TARZAN, YOU JANE. Retards speak like that. I am sure you are capable of better arguments. I'd rather you said something like the US is a superpower and choses to use that position despite better choices, rather than to hear GOOD vs EVIL supersimplifications. Since when is Israel = Good ? Biblical times ? Stop repeating what others tell you and start reading more. Try to understand things in a less superficial level. Try using other colors than black and white. Unless your colorblind the world is way more complicated. ``` - Ignorance is Bliss… be happy and live a long life. ---
**Author:** ![Daisy\_Cutter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f6c823/32.png) [@Daisy\_Cutter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daisy_Cutter)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2003, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207/245 "2003-10-09T04:44:48Z")
\*\*Sun Tzu said know thy enemy… and obviously most war supporters neither know their enemy or even CARE to know the enemy. Even worse you then compare Islamic Terrorists to Fascist Germany and Imperial Japan… so you even compare your enemies wrongly. This way its no wonder the US will never win terrorism. Its like trying to use insecticide to kill rodents… the “exterminator” will fall sick before the rats ever do. If you don’t care about what Osama Bin Laden thinks you have no means of understanding his objectives… I wont even spend typing time trying to explain to you why Bush is the best thing that ever happened to Osama… \*\* I probably know more about the enemy than you do, so don’t patronize me, with your “you are ignorant”,“only retards speak like that” comments. I have read the entire Al Qaeda training manual, have you ? I know what their goals are, something I have stated before. And guess what, after reading all this, my solution is “Kill 'em”. \*\*You say many allies and certain opposed nations… how about you switch it around ? Certain allies and many opposed nations. \*\* Nations are free to oppose us. They will of course have to live the concequences of their actions. Of course, if they actively oppose us in a military fashion, then they will be crushed like an elephant stepping on a mouse. **As for the hiding part… do you think suicidal terrorists would be scared by a stupid Daisy Cutter bomb ? At least they seem to strike with a purpose and clarity of mission. Americans just lash back rabidly. If you call that American Justice its your rose tinted glasses…** So you have a certain degree of admiration for the terrorists, how noble of you. They are the lowest scum of the earth, and there is nothing admirable at all about commiting suicide inorder to take out a bunch of innocents. Do you have a poster on your wall also of these people, as is common in certain parts of the world ? \*\* Lastly… you keep saying WE GOOD… THEY BAD… ISRAEL GOOD… ARAFAT BAD… ME TARZAN, YOU JANE. Retards speak like that. I am sure you are capable of better arguments. I’d rather you said something like the US is a superpower and choses to use that position despite better choices, rather than to hear GOOD vs EVIL supersimplifications. Since when is Israel = Good ? Biblical times ? Stop repeating what others tell you and start reading more. Try to understand things in a less superficial level. Try using other colors than black and white. Unless your colorblind the world is way more complicated. \*\* Well, certain things are that simple. WW2 - Germany - Evil - Japan - Evil - Stalin - Evil - Nazis - Evil etc. USA and other Allies = Good 2003 - Islamo facsism (terrorism) = Evil USA and other Allies = Good This is a war, there will only be one winner, and unfortunately for you and many others around the world, the winner of that war will be the USA. **- Ignorance is Bliss… be happy and live a long life.** Same to you. . . .😛 ---
**Author:** ![flonks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ab097/32.png) [@flonks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flonks)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2003, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207/246 "2003-10-09T07:42:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Brutus \* > \*\*America’s opinion of France has [plummeted.](http://www.gallup.com/poll/releases/pr030926.asp) Of that, you can be certain. The question is, what can France do to repair its image in our eyes? \*\* Yes, that I know, but I don’t think that “nobody is interested in France anymore”, as Daisy Cutter put it. It doesn’t surprise me, **Brutus** that you rush to his help, since you two seem to share a rather simpled hatred for everything which is not the way you want it to be. I don’t care whether and how France will repair it’s image. The Americans will come back anyway, and if not, then they miss the chance to experience a beautiful country with a rich culture and interesting people. And the french economy? It’s tourism economy will need to be happy with the Asian and European tourists and the Americans which are not easily fooled by the so-called American patriots. A country should not depend too much on tourism anyway, since experience tells us (Egypt, Morocco, Tunesia) that tourists are the first to stay a way from a place if it is unsafe. So an Al-Quaida attack could have a similar effect as the diplomatic crisis between the US and France. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2003, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207/247 "2003-10-09T07:44:39Z")
Muslim extremists = evil American extremists = evil Moderates everywhere who want to live in peace with the rest of the world = good Unfortunately the extremists on both sides spoil the world for the rest of us who just want to live in peace. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2003, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207/248 "2003-10-09T08:19:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Daisy Cutter \* > We are at war, diplomacy is a waste of time until the enemy capitulates fully, then we can talk. Last I heard, the enemy has not capitulated, therefore we will continue with the war, until they have all capitulated or until they are all dead/out of commission. Wow, just change “the enemy” to “The Great Satan”, and you could attribute it to Osama Bin Laden without anyone batting an eye. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2003, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207/249 "2003-10-09T09:27:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\*Wow, just change “the enemy” to “The Great Satan”, and you could attribute it to Osama Bin Laden without anyone batting an eye. \*\* Wow, just change “the enemy” to “the Axis powers”, and you could attribute it to Franklin Roosevelt without anyone batting an eye. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2003, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207/250 "2003-10-09T11:03:20Z")
I believe tourism to the USA has suffered more than to any other country. In fact, it was the lobby for the airlines and travel industry which pressured the government to delay or suspend certain measures like lowering the 6 month stay given on a tourist visa (this was cancelled) or the requiremnet for machine readable passports (this was delayed). The USA gets a lot of income from tourism and cannot afford to lose it. Still, due to the perception that it is a target for terrorism and to general antipathy towards American policies, tourism to the USA has dropped sharply. Attitudes like we see here cost American jobs. In any case, it is no wonder the US government does not quite understand the need to get the message across in other countries as it is having trouble getting it across to the American people who are not buying it either. The White House has started a new PR campaign to see if it can do something about convincing a few Americans at a time when opinion polls show an increasing number of Americans now question whether the war in Iraq was really justified and even members of congress are questioning the motives and the cost of the war and the reconstruction. But their arguments are ludicrous. Rice, in Chicago, asked opponents of the war to consider the consequences of leaving Saddam Hussein in power. “ **The credibility of the United Nations would have been in tatters** ” she said. This from the government who did the most to discredit the UN, calling it “irrelevant” and then ignoring everything which the UN said. The White House now is just a pathetic sight. They are squirming with discomfort and having to go around begging. Suddenly they have a new found respect for the UN and are asking for help. They are putting up a new PR campaign to further disseminate their lies but I think the American people are seeing more and more the lies for what they are. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2003, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207/251 "2003-10-09T11:36:03Z")
PR campaigns are diplomacy. Diplomacy is appeasement. Apppeasement means that Hitler would’ve won. Just bomb 'em. Don’t bother to tell 'em why. Let Muslim extremists explain everything. Then everyone will understand. We can count on them to tell the truth about the US and are intentions. Diplomacy and PR campaigns are just wasteful liberal spending programs. Why should we bother to explain why the bombs are falling when we have Muslim extremists to do it for us for free. This kind of governmental redundancy is what cost liberals the White House. Muslim extremists will explain things in such a way that no more children will grow up to become terrorists. They’ve got it covered. We don’t need to worry about it. They’re just gonna hate America anyway. They hate us for our freedoms remember? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2003, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207/252 "2003-10-09T18:29:12Z")
I wish Bush were really “begging” for UN help… he is only saving face by saying he went to the UN and the UN didnt “collaborate”. Its all about internal politics. Most americans being badly informed or willingly short sighted will think it was a honest to God and real attempt at getting the UN to help Iraq. Which it hasnt been up to now… ``` I still dont understand why americans think the Oval Office is more democratic than the UN... and they also forget the UN was created a lot due to the USA... ``` ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2003, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207/253 "2003-10-09T18:54:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Daisy Cutter \* > \*\* I probably know more about the enemy than you do, so don’t patronize me, with your “you are ignorant”,“only retards speak like that” comments. > > I have read the entire Al Qaeda training manual, have you ? I know what their goals are, something I have stated before. And guess what, after reading all this, my solution is “Kill 'em”. \*\* ``` You patronize the rest of the world by saying the US alone knows best.... and if I read a US Army manual will I understand any better what happens in Washington DC ? I doubt it. I havent indulged in extremist literature lately thou... you have that advantage over me... I will try to get my hands on more Al Qaeda and Neo-Con propaganda. ``` > [@](#): > > Well, certain things are that simple. For you every thing seems simple… > [@](#): > > 2003 - Islamo facsism (terrorism) = Evil > USA and other Allies = Good So where is MOST of the world that is neither terrorist or american poodles ? Any grey colors in your black and white world ? Some must be heavy grey like the Saudi… and others light grey like Spain… ? > [@](#): > > This is a war, there will only be one winner, and unfortunately for you and many others around the world, the winner of that war will be the USA. This is not a war… there will be no winners the way its going… and unfortunately for the world everyone is losing. Lose - Lose situation. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2003, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207/254 "2003-10-09T21:55:53Z")
[QUOTE] This is a war, there will only be one winner, and unfortunately for you and many others around the world, the winner of that war will be the USA. QUOTE] Hmmm, so if Daisy Cutter´s idea of defeating an enemy is “kill ´em all”, wouldn´t that be some kind of life threat towards Rashak Mani?.. and anyone who doesn´t share his ideas too. Way to go Daisy Cutter :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Roland\_Saul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58f4c7/32.png) [@Roland\_Saul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Saul)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2003, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207/255 "2003-10-10T04:18:49Z")
If diplomacy=appeasement, then WW2 would never have existed. If the German electorate hadn’t been so gullible, they wouldn’t have fallen for the ol’ “imminent threat” scam, and Germany wouldn’t have gone on their crusade. Sound familiar? If diplomacy had been given it’s rightful chance by the German people in the late 30’s, then 20 or so million people wouldn’t have died for the lies of the Reich. WW2 and Hitler happened because indoctrinated and dogmatic militarism and state-induced xenophobia prevailed over reason until the demands of extended conquest became greater than the ability of the nation to produce the human and material mechanisms of war. Am I alone in seeing clear parallels between late 30’s Germany and the rabid “might makes right” and the “we’ve gotta defend ourselves against whatever oil-holding sovereign nation happens to be victim this week” mentality of the current hawks in the US?? Hitler duped his people into thinking that they had some divine right to force their ideology at gunpoint onto the rest of thier wolrd. He was clearly a delusional psycopath, but incredibly perceptive when it came to manipulating the mindset of a nation through blatant misrepresentation and outright lies. In that sense, and IMHO, he and GW share the same talents, or at least the same calibre of disinformation infrastructure. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2003, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207/256 "2003-10-10T05:16:56Z")
It is quite clear from the statements of the knee-jerk Bush supporters that the US image abroad is unimportant to them. They seem to equate temporary dominance with perpetural sovereignty over the world’s affairs. Their sense of history seems to be such that the phrase about it being a long road that doesn’t turn goes right over their heads. I guess it is impossible to get through to them just how disgusting the “kill 'em all” phrase is. Or at least it looks that way because that method of problem solving has persisted all the way through this thread. It looks more and more like the fictitious heroics of the John Waynes, Clint Eastwoods, Charles Bronsons _et al_ and the need for fictional stories to have a beginning, a middle and an has distorted reality in a dangerous way. It gives the idea that if you are just violent enough, all problems are solved in two episodes, or two hours, at most. Hey, “Bring it on” as long as you are “bringing it on” to someone else and thousands of miles away. I guess I’ll just bow out and let them continue to bluster from the safety of their computers. ---
**Author:** ![Eolbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d07c76/32.png) [@Eolbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eolbo)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2003, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207/257 "2003-10-10T05:48:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Roland Saul \* > \*\* > Am I alone in seeing clear parallels between late 30’s Germany and the rabid “might makes right” and the “we’ve gotta defend ourselves against whatever oil-holding sovereign nation happens to be victim this week” mentality of the current hawks in the US?? > \*\* An interesting quote: > [@](#): > > “Of course the people don’t want war. But after all, it’s the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it’s always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it’s a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger.” [Hermann Goering](http://www.snopes.com/quotes/goering.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Daisy\_Cutter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f6c823/32.png) [@Daisy\_Cutter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daisy_Cutter)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2003, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207/258 "2003-10-10T06:10:20Z")
Speaking of quotes: **We should seek by all means in our power to avoid war, by analysing possible causes, by trying to remove them, by discussion in a spirit of collaboration and good will.** _Neville Chamerberlain_ Of course, there’s this one also, which is a bit more well known, from that same person. **I believe it is peace for our time . . . peace with honour.** Whole lot of good all that analyzing, discussions and removing “root” causes did. Not too different than what many people here preach. Myself, I prefer this these: **"We make war that we may live in peace"** _Aristotle_ **The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his** \*General George S. Patton \* 😃 ---
**Author:** ![flonks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ab097/32.png) [@flonks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flonks)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2003, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207/259 "2003-10-10T08:01:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Daisy Cutter \* > **"We make war that we may live in peace"** I prefer this phrase: _Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity_ ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2003, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207/260 "2003-10-10T09:15:42Z")
I hate war. Any war. But comparing Hitler or Goering to Bush, is way out of line. imho. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207.md?page=14)