# US image worsens **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 2, 2003, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207 "2003-10-02T20:58:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207/21 "2003-10-03T01:57:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > **Why does this remind me of december?** Because you simply cannot stop obsessing over the poor fellow. \*\* > [@](#): > > Discredit the messenger and deny the message…\*\* > > \ > > \*\*…As far as I am concerned the BBC has a much better reputation as a source than you do. \*\* I base my stance the Gallup poll that I linked to. The notorious anti-American bent that the BBC would apply to even the weather forecast, if they could figure out how, spoils my opinion of them. There are several [blogs](http://biased-bbc.blogspot.com/) that exist solely on pointing out the near-daily bias that the BBC issues forth. The BBC article claims that 61% of Indonesians used to have a favorable opinion of America. I provide a Gallup poll that shows otherwise. Explain the discrepancy. Perhaps when the report from the U.S. Advisory Group on Public Diplomacy for the Arab and Muslim World is released (I couldn’t find it at [state.gov](http://state.gov), just a press release), we can compare it to the BBC story. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207/22 "2003-10-03T02:58:09Z")
**Brutus** , you’re comparing a Zogby poll with a Gallup poll. You have proven exactly dick. The Muslim world hates the US more than they ever have. That is fact. The arrogance and recklessness of GWB is the reason for it. It really doesn’t matter if you think their hatred is warranted (and some of it _is_). This is still an issue we have to deal with. Part of the way we have to deal with it is to stop acting so goddamn smug and superior all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207/23 "2003-10-03T03:02:06Z")
**Only 1% of the population of Jordan has a favourable opinion of the USA. - Eolbo** So what! Hell… I remember the days when 99.9% of the Iraqis had a favorable opinion of Saddam Hussein. Maybe one day, after the comet strikes,\*\* Sailor\*\* will become he darling of the SDMB… But I doubt it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207/24 "2003-10-03T03:25:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by manhattan \* > Rather than talking so much about the WMDs or even human rights, the U.S. should have said, “Iraq supports terrorists. We promised to bring down supporters of terrorists. We will bring down Iraq. QED. And to confirm what some governments fear, Iraq is not last if some governments don’t shape up.” Good lord, don’t you people ever get tired of distorting reality to support the Bushista party line. Oh wait, I forgot, those hijackers what flew the planes into the buildings was all Iraqi. :rolleyes: The only support for terrorism coming out of Iraq was a little moral support for Palestinians. And people wonder why so many Americans think Saddam had something to do with 9-11… ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207/25 "2003-10-03T03:28:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by manhattan \* > **Well, U.S. mistakes in prosecuting the Iraq war are certainly some of it. With the benefit of hindsight it’s clear that in terms of the U.S. reputation in the short term it would have been better to have had a much larger invasion force to shrink the pool of people and weapons available to conduct the guerilla campaign now going on. It would have killed thousands more Iraqi civilians, but hey, can’t let our poll numbers slip over a little thing like that, right?** Why would “it … have killed thousands more Iraqi civilians …”? There was very little opposition on the part of the Iraqi army and a larger US force wouldn’t have increased the intensity of what little fighting there was. Many of the civilian casualties were from air attacks and a larger ground force wouldn’t have changed that. And anyway the argument isn’t that more troops were needed to win the war. It is that more troops, and civil affairs people, and so on are needed in the aftermath of the active combat. > [@](#): > > \*\*Another U.S. mistake is that we haven’t been getting our message out, that we are at war with terrorists, well enough. It’s been swamped by lies (see below). \*\* This is the common old “we aren’t getting our message out” routine. I think we are getting the message out and the Muslim world doesn’t like the message. The message they seem to have gotten is that “if you aren’t with us you are against us” and “we have the right to depose regimes that we don’t like” and “we will justify such action by exaggerating out of all reasonable bounds presumed threats to us.” > [@](#): > > **Rather than fighting it effectively, the U.S. fed the lie by getting outfoxed diplomatically prior to the Iraq war. Rather than talking so much about the WMDs or even human rights, the U.S. should have said, "Iraq supports terrorists. We promised to bring down supporters of terrorists. We will bring down Iraq. QED. And to confirm what some governments fear, Iraq is not last if some governments don’t shape up."** And why do we still support US leaders who were so badly outfoxed? Is it because we allowed them to paint us into a corner. Comgress with its resolution allowing GW to go to war in Iraq whenever he thought it necessary comes to ming. > [@](#): > > **So the question is how to overcome this. Clearly, surrendering the war on terrorism is out of the question. Nor are we going to abandon Israel, a big source of the “base” opposition from which the more recent numbers grew.** A start might be to realize that it is highly unlikely that there is a military solution to the problem of terrorism. > [@](#): > > \*\*Finally (not really, but for purposes of this post), the U.S. has to stop supporting dictators. If we believe an important weapon against terrorism is democracy, we’ve got to stop buddying up with dictators in places like Saudi Arabia and elsewhere. That means coming to Liberia’s aid more quickly, speaking out more and more urgently about Mugabe, ceasing support for dictators simply because they have some natural resource we need and maybe even apologizing for having done so in the past. The cold war is over and we don’t need spots on the map to counteract the Soviets’ spots – we can now afford to be consistent in valuing human rights. \*\* Absolutely, but the current administration seems to be conducting themselves like those in power in the US during the cold war when, no matter how despicable they were, the enemies of our enemies were our friends. I think GW believes in that idea and it doesn’t look to me like he knows how to change his mind. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207/26 "2003-10-03T03:46:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gorsnak \* > **The only support for terrorism coming out of Iraq was a little moral support for Palestinians.** Yeah, if you call $25,000 a pop “moral support”. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207/27 "2003-10-03T04:17:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by milroyj \* > \*\*Yeah, if you call $25,000 a pop “moral support”. :rolleyes: \*\* Do you have a cite for this? I know Saddam was _alleged_ to have given money to the families of suicide bombers but I don’t know that it was ever confirmed. ---
**Author:** ![Not\_In\_Anger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/3ab097/32.png) [@Not\_In\_Anger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_In_Anger)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207/28 "2003-10-03T04:24:02Z")
Why is this nonsense still being debated? ---
**Author:** ![Eolbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d07c76/32.png) [@Eolbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eolbo)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207/29 "2003-10-03T04:40:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Milum \* > \*\ ***Only 1% of the population of Jordan has a favourable opinion of the USA. - Eolbo** > > So what! Hell… I remember the days when 99.9% of the Iraqis had a favorable opinion of Saddam Hussein. > > \*\* Lets not confuse a bodgy statistic made up by a totalitarian regime with one by experts chosen by the Bush adminstration itself. Its not like the figures comes from Sailor, Bush and co commissioned this survey. ---
**Author:** ![Eolbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d07c76/32.png) [@Eolbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eolbo)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207/30 "2003-10-03T04:54:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*Do you have a cite for this? I know Saddam was _alleged_ to have given money to the families of suicide bombers but I don’t know that it was ever confirmed. \*\* As far as I know the payments themselves have not been contested but the significance of them have been. One view is that its a ‘reward’ for the act and is the missing link that proves Saddam’s support of international terrorism The other view is that they are charity for a Palestinian family that is about to find itself out on the streets given the Israeli bulldozing of their home that is about to occur. My personal view its they are probably a bit of each. I dont imagine Saddam lost any sleep over the victims of suicide bombing, and there was political mileage no doubt in playing the role of philanthropist to the Palestinians. I also suspect though that there was an element of genuine sympathy for the newly homeless family as well and politics and sentiment conveniently coincided on the issue. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207/31 "2003-10-03T05:10:54Z")
The idea is that in the longterm Muslims are supposed to feel better about us because of the example of Iraqi democracy. I don’t think anyone expected our image to get better shortly after an invasion and deposing of their hero. ---
**Author:** ![Space\_Vampire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Space\_Vampire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Space_Vampire)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207/32 "2003-10-03T05:33:34Z")
It’s not just the Muslim world. It pretty well sucks to be American anywhere but the US right now as far as I can tell. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207/33 "2003-10-03T06:14:36Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t think anyone expected our image to get better shortly after an invasion and deposing of their hero. Saddam Hussein was not a Muslim hero. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207/34 "2003-10-03T06:57:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*Saddam Hussein was not a Muslim hero. \*\* ``` He was too many due to his confrontational tactics with the US. He is kind of a hero now. ``` Its incredible how the neo con denial goes: Saddam hates Al Qaeda -\> He gave 25k to bomber families No Terrorists in Iraq -\> We’re getting the WMD No WMD -\> We still had to take down a horrible dictator He was our Dictator -\> Cold War leftover Iraq is ever more caotic -\> Nah… things are better than with Saddam Arabs hate USA -\> They would hate the US anyway Hate breeds terrorism -\> etc etc Bush is an idiot -\> How did he get to be President then ? … and so forth… if you really think that ALL muslims/arabs hated the US anyway… and you dont mind them hating even more are you sure your fighting terrorism ? Many arabs do have education and do see the need for more open middle east… more democratic if not fully democratic. Even in Iran there was a great admiration for all things american. South America too… now we mostly despise US arrogance. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207/35 "2003-10-03T07:52:33Z")
Often it’s more enlightening to look at what people like than what they dislike. [Here](http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/124929_attitudes04.html) is another American popularity contest poll, kindly provided by **Aldebaran** in his American-as-the-evil-empire-thread. All in all interviewing some 44,000 people. And what do we have? 77%% of Palestinians think Bin Laden is most likely to do the right thing. That only 1% Jordanians have a favourable view of the US is perhaps not so surprising when 55% apparently have a very favourable view of Bin Laden. Likewise what do you care if only 15% Indonesians have a favourable view of you when 58% have a favourable view of Bin Laden. bin Laden also scored pretty high in Pakistan only beaten by the esteemed Saudi king. I mean, do you even want these people to like you? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by capacitor \* > \*\*Winston, the minimum one should do is stand up for principles. Nobody likes hypocrites. \*\* Well I agree. Doing what one think is correct should not be tempered by what some random poll says. Other powerful nations in history have come to terms with being unpopular, but Americans always seem so preoccupied with being liked. It’s just not going to happen. Being hated is something that goes with the territory of being wealthy and powerful. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > **Some people hear what they want to hear and disregard the rest. Which leads them to say really stupid things which go against all the evidence.** Some people raise polls to impeccable evidence, when in fact it’s little more than highly dubious and easy to manipulate indicators. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > **No, some of these people would hate the US no matter what. The rest have become disenfranchised during the last three years, for some reason.** Jordanians disenfranchised? Saudi Arabians disenfranchised? Well since they’re not citizen of the US of course they’re disenfranchised from American policy making. But if you mean that the Baathist and Taliban have been disenfranchised in their respectively countries, yes you’re correct – and your point is? Meanwhile, the common Afghans and Iraqis have, if not quite there yet, at least more decision rights than before. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > **Brutus, you’re comparing a Zogby poll with a Gallup poll. You have proven exactly dick** If the polls should any validity at all, it must be because they reflect some real thing in the population. If polls that roughly examining the same things can not be compared it must be because they do not mirror the population, and so one or the both are useless. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*Saddam Hussein was not a Muslim hero. \*\* He certainly was a hero in some quarters of the Middle-East. Perhaps that doesn’t make him a _Muslim_ hero, and perhaps we don’t want to waste our time nitpicking. - Rune ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207/36 "2003-10-03T08:16:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by WinstonSmith \* > **Jordanians disenfranchised? Saudi Arabians disenfranchised? Well since they’re not citizen of the US of course they’re disenfranchised from American policy making. But if you mean that the Baathist and Taliban have been disenfranchised in their respectively countries, yes you’re correct – and your point is? Meanwhile, the common Afghans and Iraqis have, if not quite there yet, at least more decision rights than before.** Your argument(s) are incredibly obtuse. I’m starting to think deliberately so. We’re talking about the following figures: > [@](#): > > only 1% of Jordanians took a favourable view of the US compared with 25% in the summer of 2002. That’s a 24% drop in one year, in case you’re hard of mathematics. That’s what I’m talking about. That figure, and other countries’ figures, is what everyone you’re disagreeing with in this thread is talking about. You’re making the claim that these surveys are worthless. Perhaps you could provide some more accurate data. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207/37 "2003-10-03T08:20:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Trinopus \* > Also, world opinion rose, even in Muslim countries, shortly after the WTC attacks, in sympathy. It’s not unexpected for that to be a short-term effect, no matter what happened with U.S. policies. > \*\* Well gee whiz. Maybe we can blow up another skyscraper full of people so they can like us again. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207/38 "2003-10-03T09:52:29Z")
> [@](#): > > - Originally posted by Manhattan\*: > Well, U.S. mistakes in prosecuting the Iraq war are certainly some of it. With the benefit of hindsight it’s clear that in terms of the U.S. reputation in the short term it would have been better to have had a much larger invasion force to shrink the pool of people and weapons available to conduct the guerilla campaign now going on. It would have killed thousands more Iraqi civilians, but hey, can’t let our poll numbers slip over a little thing like that, right? So you are saying killing more civilians in Iraq would have given the US more popularity there? I see. Right. > [@](#): > > Another U.S. mistake is that we haven’t been getting our message out, that we are at war with terrorists, well enough. No, the USA is at war with Irak. The US government has been trying hard enough to spread the lie that Iraq was linked to terrorism but intelligent people can tell that is a lie. > [@](#): > > It’s been swamped by lies Yes, by the Bush government. > [@](#): > > Rather than talking so much about the WMDs or even human rights, the U.S. should have said, "Iraq supports terrorists. Lies, lies, lies and more lies. You think lying more would have got better results? The world is not stupid and can see through the lies. Brutus, the facts reported by the BBC are accurate. The fact is that the Government commissioned this report and those are the results whether you like them or not. I have linked to the site of the company that did the report and they confirm what the BBC said. Your attacking the credibility of the BBC is plainly ridiculous. The facts are what they are and were correctly reported by the BBC. Forget that the BBC reported it. I have linked to the source themselves. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Milum:_ > Maybe one day, after the comet strikes, Sailor will become he darling of the SDMB… > > But I doubt it. This is the forum for intelligent debate, not for popularity contests but I am quite confident that I would beat you in a popularity poll by a wide margin anytime. Just let me know when you want to meet in the pit and I will oblige. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207/39 "2003-10-03T09:54:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by msmith537 \* > \*\*Well gee whiz. Maybe we can blow up another skyscraper full of people so they can like us again. \*\* Or maybe stop invading Islamic countries that have nothing to do with 9-11? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207/40 "2003-10-03T10:01:57Z")
\*\*It’s not just the Muslim world. It pretty well sucks to be American anywhere but the US right now as far as I can tell. \*\* Yeah, but no one else wants to kill us. As for Saddam Hussein, obviously I could be wrong, I’ve never seen a poll. But the demonstrators in Arab nations carrying signs and chanting Saddam’s name was pretty convincing to me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-image-worsens/205207.md?page=3)