# US Law Dopers: Is J.D. a doctorate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 24, 2009, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364 "2009-09-24T12:57:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/1 "2009-09-24T12:57:21Z")
Some Canadian law schools have switched to giving J.D. degrees. In US parlance, is it appropriate for someone who holds a J.D. to refer to it as a doctorate? To my mind, a doctorate is a Ph.D or an S.J.D. ---
**Author:** ![statsman1982](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e79b87/32.png) [@statsman1982](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/statsman1982)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/2 "2009-09-24T13:07:08Z")
Yes, it is a genuine doctorate, similar to an MD or DO being a doctorate. If you’re looking for a common qualifier to distinguish PhDs from JDs, the latter are often called “professional doctorates”. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/3 "2009-09-24T13:13:24Z")
> [@statsman1982](#): > > Yes, it is a genuine doctorate, similar to an MD or DO being a doctorate. If you’re looking for a common qualifier to distinguish PhDs from JDs, the latter are often called “professional doctorates”. That may be technically true if you pick at it hard enough but most people don’t consider it that way. A doctorate in the U.S. is generally considered to be the highest level of an _academic_ degree and not a professional degree. Plus, there are academic doctorate programs in law that take more schooling than a J.D. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/4 "2009-09-24T13:15:10Z")
The JD stands for juris doctorate, so I guess in that respect it is a doctorate. But I have never encountered a lawyer who considered him/herself a “doctor.” I always consider it closer to a Masters, as it is an initial post-grad degree. And a JD requires no thesis. I always thought an advanced law degree - LLM - was the equivalent of a doctorate in law. But I’ve never paid much attention to degrees, titles and such. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/5 "2009-09-24T13:15:56Z")
That schooling issue is exactly what I mean. As far as I can tell, the new J.D. is just the old LL.B., re-packaged. No thesis requirement, no independent research - none of the hallmarks of a Ph.D. / S.J.D. It seems inappropriate to call it a doctorate, on par with a Ph.D. / S.J.D. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/6 "2009-09-24T13:38:13Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > That schooling issue is exactly what I mean. As far as I can tell, the new J.D. is just the old LL.B., re-packaged. That seems to be it. There was [an item](http://www.lawyersweekly.ca/index.php?section=article&volume=29&number=9&article=4) in the \*Lawyer’s Weekly \*back in July that explained the reason for the change. From the link: > [@](#): > > Two factors are spurring the desire for a name change: perception and reality. The former reflects impressions left by the word “bachelor.” “LL.B. means first degree. We became concerned that that designation actually understated the level of education our students had,” said Mayo Moran, dean of law at the University of Toronto, which, in 2001, became the first law school in Canada to switch from the bachelor of laws to the juris doctor. > > That concern is widely shared among students and educators across the country. In the U.K., Australia, Hong Kong and a number of other centres around the world, the LL.B. is a first undergraduate degree. The J.D. degree, on the other hand, is clearly recognized as a second degree, especially in the United States where it is the most common designation for law graduates. > > … > > It’s a logical conclusion to reach, said Philip Bryden, dean of law at the University of New Brunswick (UNB) in Fredericton. “I think that most Canadians understand that an LL.B. is not a conventional ‘undergraduate’ degree, but some people feel that in an environment in which international mobility is more common among lawyers it is useful to signal that the Canadian degree follows the U.S. model rather than the traditional English or Australian model,” he noted. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/7 "2009-09-24T14:06:48Z")
Sure, you can call me doctor! But no, it ain’t a doctorate in anything but name. We amused ourselves on graduation day by referring to each other as doctor, but I’ve never been addressed that way since, and I wouldn’t expect to be. There may have been a time when the J.D. was more akin to a doctorate, but that’s long past. I suppose I agree that it’s closer to a Masters than anything else, but that too is a poor analogy, because the Master’s degree connotes a deep concentration in a particular area of study, just without a thesis, while the J.D. is more a professional qualification. Anyway, I take it that in Canada, the route is that you get a Bachelor’s degree after college (probably a B.A. or B.S. for most) and then you can go to law school for some additional years (here it’s 3) and get an LL.B.? If so, then your LL.B. is exactly the same as a J.D. But, as quoted, in England and much of the rest of the Commonwealth, an LL.B. is the undergraduate degree you get if you major in Law – a true Bachelors – and so I understand the impulse to avoid confusion. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/8 "2009-09-24T14:32:13Z")
Historically, people studied law, medicine and theology after their regular university courses and so these were what we would think of as modern day doctorates i.e. terminal degrees. This usage you refer to is the carryover we see today and even in Britain today, these doctorates (true doctorates over there) are called higher doctorates. First a little comment on modern American usage. There are three levels of degrees: bachelor, master and doctor. Associate is a degree true but is not yet considered a separate academic level being used primarily to transfer into a bachelor’s program but I suspect it will be soon by the American Council on Education (ACE). In the U.S., the doctorate is a terminal degree viz. the highest you can get in your field. There is only one research terminal degree, the Ph.D. (confirmed in 1986 by ACE) any other terminal degree is a professional doctorate (cf. Shagnasty’s comment) such as Ed.D. (Doctor of Education), D.S.W. (Doctor of Social Work), D.C. (Doctor of Chiropracty), etc. There are 3 exceptions to doctorate=terminal degree that I know of - Juris Doctor, Medicinae Doctor and Master of Fine Arts (The terminal degree in the arts). In modern day usage, the J.D. is the equivalent of a master’s degree which in modern terms would be an LL.M (Master of Legal Letters). Statsman is incorrect that it is a professional doctorate. The professional doctorate in law is either the Doctor of Juridicial Science (S.J.D.) or Doctor of Legal Letters (LL.D.) {I believe that is primarally an honorary degree although some may give it out] and even the ABA not dissuades calling lawyers with only a JD “Doctor”. An MD now is the equivalent of a Master’s in Medicine (MM) and there is not a professional degree for general medicine although some do get a professional terminal degree in their field of practice. Doctors who enter research will often get Ph.D.s as well. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/9 "2009-09-24T15:03:17Z")
Some style guides consider it improper to refer to your J.D. as a “juris doctorate” in a resume or otherwise professionally, the correct term supposedly being either “juris doctor” or “juris doctor degree.” That’s subject to debate, I suppose, but I make it a point to avoid juris doctorate to be on the safe side and avoid offending PhDs. The J.D. isn’t equivalent to an M.D. or a PhD, but that’s not a slam on the J.D - it’s its own special animal. I liked this quote from Northern Piper in a previous thread so much that I went back and looked it up: “The law degree is an applied study in human interactions - how people deal with each other, how they solve problems in their daily lives, how they organize their affairs, and how they relate to the government and vice versa. In my view, the LL.B./J.D. is a humanities degree.” That’s a pretty good summation. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/10 "2009-09-24T15:10:11Z")
Heh - I just noticed I quoted the OP to answer the OP. Physician, heal thyself! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ENugent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4af34b/32.png) [@ENugent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ENugent)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/11 "2009-09-24T15:45:19Z")
Not a doctorate. I wore my Ph.D. hood to my law school graduation, though. Smartass. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/12 "2009-09-24T16:15:39Z")
There is no standard. Only the most pretentious PhD holders consider an MD not a “real” doctor. For statistical purposes, the US Department of Education considers the PhD and EdD equivalent, as well as the Doctor of Public Health, and labels them “doctor’s degrees.” It considers the JD, MD, DPharm, MDiv (Master of Divinity), and DC (Doctor of Chiropractic) to be equivalent “first professional” degrees. _I_ certainly don’t consider the DC equivalent to an MD (or the EdD equivalent to a PhD), but who am I to say? The DOE just lumps degrees together by the number of years they take and whether they qualify you for a licensed profession. The traditional distinction is between “research doctorates,” that is, PhDs, and non-research or “professional doctorates,” that is, MDs, etc., but that distinction has broken down somewhat with the creation of hybrid programs and alternative degrees like the PsyD and ScD (both of which would presumably be regarded as PhD-equivalent degrees by the government, but are designed more along the lines of professional degrees. Except when they’re not.) I say, if your hood has big flaps on the side, you’re a doctor. That doesn’t mean I’m going to let you operate on me. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/13 "2009-09-24T16:22:49Z")
Too late to add: Don’t forget that _all_ of these degrees are inventions of the last 150 years or so. The _real_ traditional doctorates, whose holders could look down their noses at “mere” PhD holders, are the so-called “higher doctorates,” chiefly and primarily the Doctor of Divinity. These are still awarded (I think) by Oxford and Cambridge, but are unknown in the US except as honorary degrees. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/14 "2009-09-24T16:57:36Z")
> [@Cliffy](#): > > Anyway, I take it that in Canada, the route is that you get a Bachelor’s degree after college (probably a B.A. or B.S. for most) and then you can go to law school for some additional years (here it’s 3) and get an LL.B.? If so, then your LL.B. is exactly the same as a J.D. That’s about right. For the most part\*, Canadian common law schools will only admit those with Bachelor’s (or higher) degrees. Writing the LSAT is also required. There are three years of law school; during which, as I understand things, the course of study pretty much follows the Langdellian system used by US schools: a good grounding in Contracts, Criminal, Constitutional, Property, and Torts in first year; followed by required courses and electives in the upper years. A course whose grade rests on a research paper will be required at some point; other requirements would include courses in Civil Procedure and Legal Research and Writing, among others. Mooting also plays a large part in the Canadian law school experience, and I understand that every student does a moot in first year. Note that upper-year requirements and electives can vary between schools, but there will always be a first year where the experience is much like that shown in _The Paper Chase_. - The reason I say “for the most part” is because Canadian schools will occasionally admit certain students without a Bachelor’s degree. Generally, such students must have put in \*at least \*two years of work towards a Bachelor’s degree and have extremely high grades/LSAT scores. But their admission is quite uncommon; in my 1L class of 180 students, we had only two such classmates, while the rest of us all had a Bachelor’s, a number also had a Master’s, and two had both of the above plus a Ph.D. Spoons, B.A., LL.B. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/15 "2009-09-24T17:54:00Z")
I have a jurisdoctor degree. I do not consider it as prestigious as an M.D. or a PhD. I do consider it as prestigious as an EdD, but that is mostly irritation at assholes like Bill Cosby who think an EdD is something that requires their friends to call them “Dr.” (I know three EdD’s like that.) My M.D. calls me Dr., and I think she is making fun of me. Probably is. But she is the kind of professional that sticks her finger up my butt as part of her “duties”. Doctor, I understand, means “teacher” in Latin, and healer in English. I am not a professional teacher, nor a healer. In general I don’t care to address academic degrees as “Dr”, I prefer Professor. “Dr” makes me think of “Dr. Kissinger” or “Dr. Castro”. But back to JDs. We do not usually do original research for the degree or have boards or a required thesis. I did do a law review style original paper back in the 1980s as part of a non-required class in law school on the issue of drug testing in the workplace. But it was not required for graduation, just my one course and 80 percent of my graduating class did nothing of the sort. It was in no way equivalent to a PhD thesis, more like a college B.S. thesis. (I did not have an undergrad thesis requirement, but did take a graduate seminar that required an original paper on nuclear deterrence theory.) Any litigator does a hell of a lot of original research as part of the job, but not the degree. If you want to call a J.D. who is a practicing lawyer something flattering, call him or her “counselor”. It’s not pretentious, it does sound kind of nice and it is what we actually do. I secretly like it when people call me that. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/16 "2009-09-24T18:20:34Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > In general I don’t care to address academic degrees as “Dr”, I prefer Professor. “Dr” makes me think of “Dr. Kissinger” or “Dr. Castro”. The only people who should be referred to as professors are those who are employed by a university as a professor. Otherwise, it’s not an appropriate title to use. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/17 "2009-09-24T18:24:29Z")
Agreed. I wasn’t sufficiently clear. With the exceptions of The Professor from Gilligan’s Island and Professor Moriarty. Non-academically employed PhD’s should be referred to in formal writing as “Dr” and in spoken language as “waiter”. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/18 "2009-09-24T18:47:24Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > … > In the U.S., the doctorate is a terminal degree viz. the highest you can get in your field. There is only one research terminal degree, the Ph.D. (confirmed in 1986 by ACE) any other terminal degree is a professional doctorate (cf. Shagnasty’s comment) such as Ed.D. (Doctor of Education), D.S.W. (Doctor of Social Work), D.C. (Doctor of Chiropracty), etc. There are 3 exceptions to doctorate=terminal degree that I know of - Juris Doctor, Medicinae Doctor and Master of Fine Arts (The terminal degree in the arts). > > In modern day usage, the J.D. is the equivalent of a master’s degree which in modern terms would be an LL.M (Master of Legal Letters). Statsman is incorrect that it is a professional doctorate. The professional doctorate in law is either the Doctor of Juridicial Science (S.J.D.) or Doctor of Legal Letters (LL.D.) {I believe that is primarally an honorary degree although some may give it out] and even the ABA not dissuades calling lawyers with only a JD “Doctor”. Why do you say that an SJD is a professional doctorate, and not a terminal research degree? I’ve always understood it to be on par with a Ph.D., in terms of the amount of work that goes into it. Plus, an SJD does not have any additional value to enter the ranks of the profession - it’s purely a research/teaching/academic degree. All you need to enter the profession is a J.D. Also, it’s not the case that a J.D. is the modern equivalent of a LL.M. The J.D. is the entry level program for legal studies. An LL.M. is a post-graduate degree, after you get your J.D. See, for example, [Yale Law School’s summary of their academic programs](http://www.law.yale.edu/academics/degreeprograms.asp): > [@](#): > > • The J.D. program is a three-year course of study. Read about the academic requirements. Learn how to apply. > > • The LL.M. is a one-year course of study for J.D. graduates interested in law teaching. Read about the academic requirements. Learn how to apply. > > • The J.S.D. program is open to Yale Law School LL.M. graduates. Read about the academic requirements. Learn how to apply. (My underlining.) That [place up in Boston](http://www.law.harvard.edu/academics/degrees/index.html) uses the same terms, offering an LL.M. as a post-grad degree after the J.D. Note as well that neither place offers a Ph.D. in law, which again suggests that the S.J.D. is the terminal academic degree. Finally, LL.M. doesn’t mean “Master of Legal Letters”. It means “Master of Laws”, just like “LL.B.” means “Bachelor of Laws”. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/19 "2009-09-24T18:48:58Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > I liked this quote from Northern Piper in a previous thread so much that I went back and looked it up: “The law degree is an applied study in human interactions - how people deal with each other, how they solve problems in their daily lives, how they organize their affairs, and how they relate to the government and vice versa. In my view, the LL.B./J.D. is a humanities degree.” That’s a pretty good summation. We’ve got some smart people on these boards. 🆒 What thread was that from? ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/20 "2009-09-24T19:39:39Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > Too late to add: Don’t forget that _all_ of these degrees are inventions of the last 150 years or so. The _real_ traditional doctorates, whose holders could look down their noses at “mere” PhD holders, are the so-called “higher doctorates,” chiefly and primarily the Doctor of Divinity. These are still awarded (I think) by Oxford and Cambridge, but are unknown in the US except as honorary degrees. One more thing, since I have a strange love of degrees and titles and such. If you ever meet someone with an actual MD from Oxford or Cambridge (not an MB BCh or MB BChir, the equivalents of American-style MDs from those schools), they actually possess one of those “higher doctorates,” awarded for a portfolio of substantial professional research in the field of (in this case) medicine. Bow and scrape at your pleasure. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364.md?page=2)