# US Law Dopers: Is J.D. a doctorate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 24, 2009, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364 "2009-09-24T12:57:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/21 "2009-09-24T20:41:59Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Why do you say that an SJD is a professional doctorate, and not a terminal research degree? I’ve always understood it to be on par with a Ph.D., in terms of the amount of work that goes into it. Plus, an SJD does not have any additional value to enter the ranks of the profession - it’s purely a research/teaching/academic degree. All you need to enter the profession is a J.D. Just because you have to do research doesn’t mean it’s a research degree. My Ed.D. program is requiring a 40,000 word dissertation (although as someone pointed out this is equivalent to JD requirements :dubious: ). The Ph.D. is THE research terminal degree in the U.S. _but_ I think you raise two excellent points. 1. How much research is an attorny expected to do? At the higher levels of law is it mostly research with little practice? 2. There is a growing mixture of doctoral programs - Ph.D. programs that require practicum classes and professional doctoral degrees that require research. > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Also, it’s not the case that a J.D. is the modern equivalent of a LL.M. The J.D. is the entry level program for legal studies. An LL.M. is a post-graduate degree, after you get your J.D. See, for example, [Yale Law School’s summary of their academic programs](http://www.law.yale.edu/academics/degreeprograms.asp): > > (My underlining.) > > That [place up in Boston](http://www.law.harvard.edu/academics/degrees/index.html) uses the same terms, offering an LL.M. as a post-grad degree after the J.D. > > Note as well that neither place offers a Ph.D. in law, which again suggests that the S.J.D. is the terminal academic degree. > > Finally, LL.M. doesn’t mean “Master of Legal Letters”. It means “Master of Laws”, just like “LL.B.” means “Bachelor of Laws”. You are correct. My mind wasn’t working without coffee. “Legal Letters” was the term some came up with to explain the two Ls. The two Ls of course come from the Latin usage of doubling a letter to indicate the plural as in pp for pages or LL for laws. I still stand by my contention that an MD is a second level degree and hence equivalent to a master’s degree. I think the confusion is that the “doctoral work” an MD does is in their residency which of course does not earn a degree. I think it is a convienent lie to say an MD is a doctoral degree because underlying that is knowing after they’ve been a resident that they truly have done doctoral level practicum work. Lastly, some more first professional degrees (master’s level) labeled as doctorates were given. It makes you wonder, what ever happened to the bachelor -\> master -\> doctor standard. ---
**Author:** ![\_xiao\_wenti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/b782af/32.png) [@\_xiao\_wenti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_xiao_wenti)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/22 "2009-09-24T21:33:44Z")
I have a PhD, which took blood, sweat, tears, qualifiers, peer-reviewed publications, thesis, and dissertation to achieve. MDs have suffered through information force feeding and residency and I respect them for their effort, and have no issue with MDs being called doctor. I personally don’t care to be called Dr. Xiao – that being reserved for my father (MD) or my sister (MD/PhD). JDs and EDDs have doctor in the title, but not in the (and this is in my opinion and not intended to incite a flame war) rigor or dedication to their field. I would be interested in the opinion of the masses about the hierarchy of doctorates. IMHO, I don’t know which is worse PhD or MD, but then it goes JD, DD, EDD. Thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![Hirka\_T\_Bawa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/db5fbb/32.png) [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hirka_T_Bawa)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/23 "2009-09-24T21:48:10Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > DPharm Slight nitpick, the degree for a pharmacist is called a PharmD., it is spelled out Doctor of Pharmacy, but the initials at the end of the name is PharmD. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/24 "2009-09-24T21:57:26Z")
> [@Cliffy](#): > > Anyway, I take it that in Canada, the route is that you get a Bachelor’s degree after college (probably a B.A. or B.S. for most) and then you can go to law school for some additional years (here it’s 3) and get an LL.B.? If so, then your LL.B. is exactly the same as a J.D. **Spoons** already said that this is how it works with Canadian common law law schools, but with law faculties in Quebec universities (most of which are civil law), it is generally possible to be admitted without previous university studies. The same is true for medical studies. Admission is very competitive, though. > [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](#): > > Slight nitpick, the degree for a pharmacist is called a PharmD., it is spelled out Doctor of Pharmacy, but the initials at the end of the name is PharmD. It may depend on the university. I have a B.Sc. and a M.Sc.; most Americans would have a B.S. and a M.S., or even a S.B. and S.M. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/25 "2009-09-24T22:05:18Z")
I would call someone with a Psy.D. a “doctor.” I have a JD. In Hungary, it is the custom to refer to lawyers as “doctor.” I thought it quaint. ---
**Author:** ![Jayrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Jayrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayrot)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/26 "2009-09-24T22:09:18Z")
> [@\_xiao\_wenti](#): > > I have a PhD, which took blood, sweat, tears, qualifiers, peer-reviewed publications, thesis, and dissertation to achieve. MDs have suffered through information force feeding and residency and I respect them for their effort, and have no issue with MDs being called doctor. I personally don’t care to be called Dr. Xiao – that being reserved for my father (MD) or my sister (MD/PhD). > > JDs and EDDs have doctor in the title, but not in the (and this is in my opinion and not intended to incite a flame war) rigor or dedication to their field. > > I would be interested in the opinion of the masses about the hierarchy of doctorates. IMHO, I don’t know which is worse PhD or MD, but then it goes JD, DD, EDD. Thoughts? This is pretty much it, actually. Anyone who writes a dissertation (i.e. original, published research) received a doctorate degree at our institution. Others are considered either master’s or professional degrees. However, Dr.Ph and Dr.Ed do file a dissertation. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/27 "2009-09-24T22:15:38Z")
> [@\_xiao\_wenti](#): > > I have a PhD, which took blood, sweat, tears, qualifiers, peer-reviewed publications, thesis, and dissertation to achieve. MDs have suffered through information force feeding and residency and I respect them for their effort, and have no issue with MDs being called doctor. I personally don’t care to be called Dr. Xiao – that being reserved for my father (MD) or my sister (MD/PhD). > > JDs and EDDs have doctor in the title, but not in the (and this is in my opinion and not intended to incite a flame war) rigor or dedication to their field. > > I would be interested in the opinion of the masses about the hierarchy of doctorates. IMHO, I don’t know which is worse PhD or MD, but then it goes JD, DD, EDD. Thoughts? It depends entirely on what you’re ranking them by. Even PhD covers a lot of ground. A PhD in creative writing is very different than a PhD in physics. But they both get to be called “doctor” (or “professor”) in the classroom. I’ve been thinking about going to grad school in Psychology, which has two terminal degrees, the PhD and the PsyD. They nominally refer to different models of training, and most people will tell you the PhD is more rigorous and research oriented, but some PsyD programs are very rigorous and research oriented and some bottom tier schools that use the professional-training model (the one the PsyD is supposed to indicate) issue perfectly valid and accredited PhDs. In all non-accademic positions, the two degrees are considered perfectly equivalent for hiring purposes (though preference may be given to certain schools, regardless of the name of the degree). Even in accademia, my understanding is if you do enough research and come from a good program, it is perfectly possible to teach at a university with a PsyD. Which psychologists get to make their patients call them “doctor”? Which ranks above a JD or an EdD? As far as your ranking, the DD is either a higher doctorate, typically (AIUI) issued many years after a PhD, or it is an honorary doctorate with no accademic standing at all. The first professional degree for ministry is the MDiv, which is a 3-year post-graduate program. There is also a DMin (Doctor of Ministry), which is a professional doctorate with a very limited research requirement awarded to an MDiv holder, after a program usually completed while employed as an ordained minister. Is this higher or lower than an MD? ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/28 "2009-09-24T22:17:27Z")
> [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](#): > > Slight nitpick, the degree for a pharmacist is called a PharmD., it is spelled out Doctor of Pharmacy, but the initials at the end of the name is PharmD. Damn. At least I know someone is reading my posts! ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/29 "2009-09-24T22:34:20Z")
The bigger discussion is: do Canadian colleges qualify as “colleges?” I had a roommate from Canada and he said that Canadian colleges offer a BA in 3 years. The average in the US now for a “four year” degree is 6 years. I finished my undergrad in 1997 from a US school, and I had to complete ~127 credits, at three credits per class average, it broke down to: ~32 credits per year, 11 classes per year, 6 classes per semester (although I generally did 12 credits during the summer terms, so 4 classes per 3 semesters per year.) Assuming that Canadian colleges are just as rigorous as US schools, here’s how it will break down: ~43 classes/ 3 years = 14 classes per year, 7 per semester. Given all the partying my roommate did in college (he was on the basketball team,) he didn’t seem like the type to be doing 7 classes per term…at least, not the same level of classes I did. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/30 "2009-09-24T22:54:40Z")
A “doctor” is someone who has made a recognized and significant original contribution to human knowledge. MDs and JDs have not, in general, done this, and so, despite the names of their degrees, are not real doctors. In the case of MDs, there is enough historical tradition for them being called doctors, and their regime of training is rigorous enough, that we allow them to incorrectly style themselves “doctor”, but I see no reason to extend this to lawyers as well. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/31 "2009-09-24T23:19:33Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > But back to JDs. We do not usually do original research for the degree or have boards or a required thesis. I did do a law review style original paper back in the 1980s as part of a non-required class in law school on the issue of drug testing in the workplace. But it was not required for graduation, just my one course and 80 percent of my graduating class did nothing of the sort. It was in no way equivalent to a PhD thesis, more like a college B.S. thesis. (I did not have an undergrad thesis requirement, but did take a graduate seminar that required an original paper on nuclear deterrence theory.) > > Any litigator does a hell of a lot of original research as part of the job, but not the degree. > > If you want to call a J.D. who is a practicing lawyer something flattering, call him or her “counselor”. It’s not pretentious, it does sound kind of nice and it is what we actually do. I secretly like it when people call me that. In Florida, a seminar paper (a law review style research paper - mine, in a class called “International Business Transactions,” was on the legal regulations governing private military companies) is a requirement of graduation. And I second the notion that “counselor” is a nice title to use when addressing a lawyer. A’tom, M.S., J.D. (But not a Doctor!) ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/32 "2009-09-24T23:21:29Z")
> [@Atomicktom](#): > > And I second the notion that “counselor” is a nice title to use when addressing a lawyer. Kinda gives me a “Cape Fear” vibe, though. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/33 "2009-09-24T23:22:38Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > We’ve got some smart people on these boards. 🆒 > > What thread was that from? Crap, I already deleted my search results and I can’t get search to work now. I’ll try again later. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/34 "2009-09-24T23:28:17Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > A “doctor” is someone who has made a recognized and significant original contribution to human knowledge. I know this is the supposed requirement for a PhD, but I’ve never heard it as the definition of the word “doctor.” Where is it used this way? ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2009, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/35 "2009-09-24T23:41:44Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > The bigger discussion is: do Canadian colleges qualify as “colleges?” > > I had a roommate from Canada and he said that Canadian colleges offer a BA in 3 years. Understand first, that semantics may play a role. To a Canadian, a “college” is a community college that grants diplomas in various practical skills: hotel and food administration, broadcasting arts and technology, and similar. A “university” grants degrees in liberal arts and sciences; and larger universities grant professional degrees in medicine and law, among other disciplines. I’m assuming your roommate was referring to a “university,” since at one time, you could get a three-year Bachelor’s degree from a Canadian university, but there were certain conditions: – You had to have an extra year of high school. In other words, you did not finish high school at Grade 12; you went on and took a Grade 13. – You had to be at an Ontario university. Since Ontario was the only province with a Grade 13, it was also the only province with universities offering a three-year degree. So unless you fulfilled the two conditions of taking a Grade 13 in Ontario _and_ attending an Ontario university, you did the same 4-year stint as everybody else in the US and Canada. Note that Ontario has since done away with Grade 13, so even Ontario students do a four-year degree now. But at one time, they certainly could get a three-year degree. Interestingly, many Ontario students who could took Grade 13 _and_ took a four-year degree from an Ontario university. Not sure what that means, but there you go. > [@](#): > > The average in the US now for a “four year” degree is 6 years. I finished my undergrad in 1997 from a US school, and I had to complete ~127 credits, at three credits per class average, it broke down to… I’m unsure how all this would compare. I’d say, based on my own experience, that 120 credit hours would be about right for a four-year degree. That would be 15 credit hours per semester (five classes at three hours weekly apiece), or 30 per academic year; which would work out to 120 credit hours per four years. Of course, taking additional courses per semester or in the summer would shorten that, while taking fewer per semester would lengthen it, but a I’d say that the vast majority of Canadian students who set out to get a four-year degree earn it in four years. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/36 "2009-09-25T00:14:45Z")
> [@\_xiao\_wenti](#): > > JDs and EDDs have doctor in the title, but not in the (and this is in my opinion and not intended to incite a flame war) rigor or dedication to their field. > > I would be interested in the opinion of the masses about the hierarchy of doctorates. IMHO, I don’t know which is worse PhD or MD, but then it goes JD, DD, EDD. Thoughts? It depends on the Ed.D. program. I know many administrators that get their admin credential and OOPS trip over their Ed.D. degree in educational leadership on the way out the door because hey, they have enough units. These people LOVE being called “doctor”. This (IMO) cheapens the Ed.D. in educational technology of one principal I know who got hers at USC and when my dissertation is done, I will put the rigor of my Ed.D. next to any Ph.D. in education. I had to design and conduct 3 research projects and write them up 5000 words each. The standard I had to reach? “It must be of publishable quality”. And then a dissertation of 40,000 words of original experimental research. Meanwhile, I’m looking at a Ph.D. program in special education and guess what . . . they’re modifying it to include more application classes from the defunct Ed.D. program so I may end up Dr. Saint Cad, Ed.D., Ph.D. having put in more research to get my professional degree than my research degree. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/37 "2009-09-25T00:24:29Z")
Not all Master’s level degrees require a thesis. For example, my father earned his Master’s in Civil Engineering from Stanford and had no thesis requirement. Another example, one can receive a Master’s in the Linguistics program at University of California without writing a thesis. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/38 "2009-09-25T00:43:14Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Not all Master’s level degrees require a thesis. For example, my father earned his Master’s in Civil Engineering from Stanford and had no thesis requirement. Another example, one can receive a Master’s in the Linguistics program at University of California without writing a thesis. To corroborate, I have a Masters of Science in Criminal Justice from the University of Central Florida (a bullshit degree if there ever was one - one year, some classes online, nothing rigorous) that didn’t require a thesis. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/39 "2009-09-25T00:47:32Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > That schooling issue is exactly what I mean. As far as I can tell, the new J.D. is just the old LL.B., re-packaged. No thesis requirement, no independent research - none of the hallmarks of a Ph.D. / S.J.D. It seems inappropriate to call it a doctorate, on par with a Ph.D. / S.J.D. Actually, most US law schools require some original research prior to graduation. It isn’t anywhere near what’s required for a proper thesis, of course, but it isn’t nothing. For example, here’s American University’s requirement: [http://www.wcl.american.edu/studentaffairs/writingreq.cfm](http://www.wcl.american.edu/studentaffairs/writingreq.cfm) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/40 "2009-09-25T00:48:15Z")
Heck, I have a Master’s degree, and I never had to write a thesis for it, either. Here (and many other places), there are two different options for a Master’s, one with a thesis, and one without but with more coursework. The usual recommendation is the thesis Master’s for a terminal degree, but the non-thesis one for someone going on for a Ph.D., but that’s just a recommendation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364.md?page=3)