# US Law Dopers: Is J.D. a doctorate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 24, 2009, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364 "2009-09-24T12:57:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/41 "2009-09-25T00:48:46Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > In modern day usage, the J.D. is the equivalent of a master’s degree which in modern terms would be an LL.M (Master of Legal Letters). Unless I’m not following you, this isn’t right. The JD and LLM are distinct degrees - in fact, the LLM is a graduate degree one gets _after_ one’s first law degree (either JD or LLB). ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/42 "2009-09-25T00:54:20Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > I would call someone with a Psy.D. a “doctor.” > > I have a JD. In Hungary, it is the custom to refer to lawyers as “doctor.” I thought it quaint. “Dr. Excellent” has a nice ring to it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/43 "2009-09-25T01:37:59Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > …If you want to call a J.D. who is a practicing lawyer something flattering, call him or her “counselor”. It’s not pretentious, it does sound kind of nice and it is what we actually do. I secretly like it when people call me that. Around here lawyers are frequently called “Attorney”. I’ve seen it in newspapers, local TV ads, in conversation, and in court. When I had jury duty the judge alternated between calling the lawyers “Attorney Smith” and “Mr Smith”. I think I’ve even seen it on forms shortened to “Atty”. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/44 "2009-09-25T02:14:41Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > A “doctor” is someone who has made a recognized and significant original contribution to human knowledge. MDs and JDs have not, in general, done this, and so, despite the names of their degrees, are not real doctors. In the case of MDs, there is enough historical tradition for them being called doctors, and their regime of training is rigorous enough, that we allow them to incorrectly style themselves “doctor”, but I see no reason to extend this to lawyers as well. This. an M.D. “Doctor” is different than a PhD “Doctor” in a sense One derives the title from the profession. One derives the title from the degree ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/45 "2009-09-25T02:16:05Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Unless I’m not following you, this isn’t right. The JD and LLM are distinct degrees - in fact, the LLM is a graduate degree one gets _after_ one’s first law degree (either JD or LLB). But the weird thing about LLMs is they are actually “lesser” degrees in the order of academic precedence they are regarded as true masters degrees, whereas JDs are considered “doctorates” for the purpose of academic attire and who enters a convocation ceremony first. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/46 "2009-09-25T02:27:50Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Around here lawyers are frequently called “Attorney”. I’ve seen it in newspapers, local TV ads, in conversation, and in court. When I had jury duty the judge alternated between calling the lawyers “Attorney Smith” and “Mr Smith”. I think I’ve even seen it on forms shortened to “Atty”. I prefer the judges to call me Mr. Stone, and think it a bit rude when they call me Attorney Stone, as Attorney is not generally a form of address in California. But it is better than inviting me to stay with the Sheriff overnight. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/47 "2009-09-25T02:53:22Z")
Yes, it is a doctorate; it appears in the name of the degree, after all. But only the most pretentious holder of the degree will insist on being called “Doctor,” or use the initials “J.D.” after his name, IME and IMHO. Every doctorate in every field is different, and the same doctorate will differ from university to university as to its exact requirements and academic rigor. I don’t see any point in saying one kind of doctorate is “better” or “greater” or “lesser” than another; they’re just _different_. ---
**Author:** ![cerberus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cerberus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cerberus)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/48 "2009-09-25T03:53:40Z")
The US professional doctorates are more in line with the European degrees in law or medicine, and with the UK MBBS/MBChB - advanced degrees in the practice of a professional discipline. This also covers advanced nursing degrees like the MSN or DSN. The other doctorates - PhD, ScD, DSc reflect research degrees with significant research requirements. ---
**Author:** ![Uncertain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Uncertain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncertain)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/49 "2009-09-25T05:26:10Z")
Jeez, this has turned into a discussion of which degrees are superior to which other degrees, along with the history of degrees around the world and various technicalities. As far as I know, in the States it would be unusual for somebody to refer to a J.D. as a doctorate. This does not mean that a J.D. is inferior to anything that _would_ be called a doctorate. Nor do I mean to imply that it is not technically correct to refer to it as a doctorate; I really don’t know, and I’m not sure there is a right answer. Furthermore, when somebody here hears “doctorate”, they’re unlikely to think of a J.D. In my experience, a J.D. is referred to as a “law degree” in contexts that allow such informality. In other contexts it’s referred as a J.D. I think that most people won’t think of MDs when they hear “doctorate”, but in certain formal contexts “doctorate” might include MDs (as in “applicants for this grant must hold a doctorate”). And yet “a doctor” will usually be taken to mean a physician (generally an MD). I’ve had conversations where somebody asks “are you a doctor?” and I respond “well, I have a Ph.D.” If I simply said “yes”, they would probably think that I’m a physician/MD. ---
**Author:** ![cerberus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cerberus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cerberus)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/50 "2009-09-25T05:58:26Z")
:rolleyes: Poster, meet OP: > [@](#): > > US Law Dopers: Is J.D. a doctorate? > Some Canadian law schools have switched to giving J.D. degrees. In US parlance, is it appropriate for someone who holds a J.D. to refer to it as a doctorate? To my mind, a doctorate is a Ph.D or an S.J.D. OP, meet Poster… The OP appears to actually be about the US conventions about academic(“doctorate” doctorates) and professional(non-research) doctorates. This involves discussing US versus, say, Canadian conventions, and discussing the distinctions among the various kinds of doctorates. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/51 "2009-09-25T06:09:15Z")
> [@Uncertain](#): > > Jeez, this has turned into a discussion of which degrees are superior to which other degrees, along with the history of degrees around the world and various technicalities. > > As far as I know, in the States it would be unusual for somebody to refer to a J.D. as a doctorate. **This does not mean that a J.D. is inferior to anything that _would_ be called a doctorate**. Nor do I mean to imply that it is not technically correct to refer to it as a doctorate; I really don’t know, and I’m not sure there is a right answer. Furthermore, when somebody here hears “doctorate”, they’re unlikely to think of a J.D. In my experience, a J.D. is referred to as a “law degree” in contexts that allow such informality. In other contexts it’s referred as a J.D. With no disrespect meant to holders of J.D, I respectfully submit that it is indeed inferior to doctorates. A JD is a first law degree. The doctorate for lawyers is LLD. ---
**Author:** ![cerberus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cerberus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cerberus)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/52 "2009-09-25T06:15:27Z")
By definition, a JD is a Doctor of Jurisprudence. A JD is a professional doctorate. Professional doctorates are not research doctorates. Calling a JD inferior to a PhD is like calling an orange inferior to a potato. Different, not inferior. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/53 "2009-09-25T06:20:33Z")
A PHD is never a first degree. A JD is. ---
**Author:** ![cerberus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cerberus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cerberus)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/54 "2009-09-25T06:44:05Z")
In the US at least, law degrees are mostly post-bacc degrees, as are the MD/DO degrees. The issue is not whether a degree is a first degree or not. In the US, all of the doctoral degrees are post-bacc. The distinction in the US is research doctorate versus professional doctorate. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/55 "2009-09-25T07:45:29Z")
> [@cerberus](#): > > The distinction in the US is research doctorate versus professional doctorate. What do you mean when you say “professional doctorate”? Several of the posters have used that term, but I don’t know what you mean by it. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/56 "2009-09-25T07:53:48Z")
All doctorate degree are post bacc. The point is that a JD is a first law degree, in other words the first degree anyone who wishes to practice as a lawyer has to complete. To contrats, to become a Barrister, I had to do an LLB (Hons) and the the Bar Course (masters equivilent) and then a year of pupilage. My first law degree was the LLB. ---
**Author:** ![Uncertain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Uncertain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncertain)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/57 "2009-09-25T13:00:54Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > With no disrespect meant to holders of J.D, I respectfully submit that it is indeed inferior to doctorates. A JD is a first law degree. The doctorate for lawyers is LLD. I purposely declined to weigh in about its inferiority or superiority to the sorts of degrees most commonly meant by “doctorate” in the US. I thought the OP might want to know that a J.D. is rarely, if ever, referred to as a doctorate in the US. If that’s correct–and it’s certainly been my experience–it might be the answer to the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Uncertain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Uncertain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncertain)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/58 "2009-09-25T13:51:46Z")
> [@cerberus](#): > > :rolleyes: > > Poster, meet OP: > > OP, meet Poster… > > The OP appears to actually be about the US conventions about academic(“doctorate” doctorates) and professional(non-research) doctorates. This involves discussing US versus, say, Canadian conventions, and discussing the distinctions among the various kinds of doctorates. We’ve already met. I stand by my suggestion that others become reacquainted with it. There are two interpretations of the question: 1. Is it usual in the US to refer to a J.D. as a “doctorate”? and 2. In the US, is one entitled to refer to a J.D. as a “doctorate”. I offered an answer to (1), which might be the information that the OP needs. I was surprised that nobody had offered it. Perhaps the OP meant the second, but I imagine that if it’s generally not done and is likely to confuse then the OP wouldn’t want to do it, even if entitled to. The OP did not ask anything like “is a Ph.D. superior to a J.D?” Now, there are different senses of “superior”. There’s a question of formal hierarchy, which might be relevant to (2), but doesn’t govern it. But the OP certainly didn’t ask which degrees were “better than” a J.D. in the colloquial sense. People were voicing their opinions about how hard it is to obtain various degrees, which degrees require contributions to humankind, whether “mere” J.D. holders were _deserving_ of such titles, and so on. I thought such discussion both irrelevant and unseemly (and I say that as a holder of a Ph.D.). The OP also didn’t ask for a treatise on degrees and their history worldwide, or in Canada, or even in the US. That falls under “possibly interesting related stuff”, which is fine, but why not answer the OP first? Anyway, thanks for my first roll-eyes. Of course it’s just a first smiley, so I likely rank below you. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/59 "2009-09-25T14:20:52Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > A PHD is never a first degree. A JD is. wrong. you can’t get either without having a B.A. and certain PhD programs do not grant a Master’s degree along the way, so it’s the only other degree you have past the B.A. - same with a J.D. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/60 "2009-09-25T14:45:20Z")
In the US, a JD fulfills the role of a doctorate in one sense: with it, one can become a professor of law at a university. **Northern Piper** , if you’re still here, is that similarly true of an LLB in Canada? Can you teach law with just that degree, or is some higher degree required? Certainly, no one in the US with a JD is ever referred to as “doctor,” on that basis, however. This includes law professors. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364.md?page=4)