# US Law Dopers: Is J.D. a doctorate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 24, 2009, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364 "2009-09-24T12:57:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/81 "2009-09-26T17:32:01Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Yes, it is a doctorate; it appears in the name of the degree, after all. But only the most pretentious holder of the degree will insist on being called “Doctor,” or use the initials “J.D.” after his name, IME and IMHO. I have to disagree with this. I work as a non-practicing lawyer, not admitted to the bar in the state in which I now work (although I am admitted in three other states). Nor does my current title necessarily indicate that I am a lawyer. I use “Jodi Lastname, JD” in order to convey that I am a lawyer, because otherwise that might not be obvious and it is relevant to my correspondence, if only to discourage persons with whom I am negotiating legal instruments or discussing legal issues from dumbing down their communications under the assumption I’m not a lawyer. I vastly prefer “JD” to “Esquire,” which I personally consider far more pretentious. But no, I don’t consider “JD” to be a “doctor” in any sense of the word, nor do I consider it a “doctorate” degree, no matter what the degree title is. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/82 "2009-09-26T18:39:16Z")
> [@Jodi](#): > > I vastly prefer “JD” to “Esquire,” which I personally consider far more pretentious. I thought Esquire indicated you were admitted to practice law in some jurisdiction. No? ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/83 "2009-09-26T19:33:28Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > I thought Esquire indicated you were admitted to practice law in some jurisdiction. No? Dunno. I’ve never looked that closely at it because I think it sounds silly and wouldn’t use it anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/84 "2009-09-26T19:37:52Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > I thought Esquire indicated you were admitted to practice law in some jurisdiction. No? Dunno. I’ve never looked that closely at it because I think it sounds silly and wouldn’t use it anyway. ETA: I guess I have to say my understanding of the term was never to the level of the specific use you theorize, since when the issue came up for me I thought the options for conveying that I’m a lawyer were either to use “JD” or “Esquire.” I chose JD because I thought it sounded less stupid and pretentious, though I wasn’t fond of either option – but I did think both were options. When I was actually practicing law, I never used either because I worked in a law office or law firm so everyone already knew I was a lawyer without some dumb rider. ---
**Author:** ![ENugent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4af34b/32.png) [@ENugent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ENugent)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/85 "2009-09-26T20:27:06Z")
> [@Sidney Evgeni Jordan](#): > > Along the same line, I have never heard of a J.D. attorney referred to as “doctor.” In my experience, even attorneys with 2 degrees (J.D. and Ph.D., or J.D. and M.D.) are not referred to in conversation or introductions as “doctor”. I disagree with your latter statement - I and a number of my colleagues with Ph.D.'s and M.D.'s have been introduced to potential clients as “Doctor” whenever the supervisor making the introduction wants to sound impressive. I never actually use it myself when introducing myself, because I think it just sounds pretentious. I insisted on ENugent, Ph.D. on my business cards, rather than Dr. ENugent. (Since my job title includes the word “attorney,” I don’t have J.D. on my business card - I figure it’s implied.) ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/86 "2009-09-26T20:37:12Z")
> [@Jodi](#): > > Dunno. I’ve never looked that closely at it because I think it sounds silly and wouldn’t use it anyway. > > When I was actually practicing law, I never used either because I worked in a law office or law firm so everyone already knew I was a lawyer without some dumb rider. In New York court papers are seemingly always signed “first name lastname, Esq.” I have never seen an attorney NOT sign their name to court papers this way, even people who would never, ever dream of using it as an everyday title or in conversation. Leading me to believe it has a specific meaning distinct from “J.D.” (which I have not ever seen affixed to court papers). ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2009, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/87 "2009-09-27T08:06:02Z")
I think the best answer to the question in the OP is: “Yes, the JD is a doctorate, a Juris Doctorate; however, it is not of the same level as a Doctor of Philosophy, the Doctor of Education, etc.” ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2009, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/88 "2009-09-27T19:31:02Z")
> [@\_xiao\_wenti](#): > > JDs and EDDs have doctor in the title, but not in the (and this is in my opinion and not intended to incite a flame war) rigor or dedication to their field. > > I would be interested in the opinion of the masses about the hierarchy of doctorates. IMHO, I don’t know which is worse PhD or MD, but then it goes JD, DD, EDD. Thoughts? I always thought the path from first admission to university to a PhD doctorate was longer than the path to a JD doctorate because the PhD folks were slow learners. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2009, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/89 "2009-09-27T19:47:29Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > Interestingly, many Ontario students who could took Grade 13 _and_ took a four-year degree from an Ontario university. Not sure what that means, but there you go. It means that at convocation, you sit there with all your classmates. Each of them is called up one at a time to be granted their degrees. As your moment in the sun approaches, you are happy that your family and friends are in the audience to share your accomplishment. Then they skip over you, and proceed to the next person in the line, leaving you wondering why the hell you don’t get a degree. It never occurs to you that your classmates are all either three year or four year degree candidates, whereas you are a four year honours degree candidate who will be called up only after all the others have been processed. So you sit, and fret, and feel terribly humiliated for being the only person in your class to not get a degree. Fuckity, fuckity, fuckity. Spoons, the reason for going for four years despite already having an extra year of high school was primarily for graduate admission and professional school admission purposes. Grad schools and professional schools all required four years and a certain grade average. A three year degree would not get you in the door. There were also some undergraduate degrees that required four years, such as Bachelor of Commerce. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2009, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/90 "2009-09-27T20:21:51Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > In the US, a JD fulfills the role of a doctorate in one sense: with it, one can become a professor of law at a university. **Northern Piper** , if you’re still here, is that similarly true of an LLB in Canada? Can you teach law with just that degree, or is some higher degree required? Teaching at university in Canada does not require a PhD, although it is increasingly rare for professors to not have Ph.D.s. Since law schools draw heavily on lawyers who are practising or who have practiced, it is common to find courses taught by people with LL.B.s/J.D.s or LL.M.s, rather than LL.D.s/S.J.D.s. It’s a matter of finding a balance on the staff between academic research and practical experience. The same can be said for M.B.A. programs in Canada. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2009, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/91 "2009-09-27T20:27:31Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Spoons, the reason for going for four years despite already having an extra year of high school was primarily for graduate admission and professional school admission purposes. Grad schools and professional schools all required four years and a certain grade average. A three year degree would not get you in the door. There were also some undergraduate degrees that required four years, such as Bachelor of Commerce. This makes sense. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2009, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/92 "2009-09-27T21:23:32Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Its the _first degree in law_ that anyone wishing to practice as a lawyer in the United States takes. Is their a prior degree that you have to take? In the USA and most of Canada, the first law degree (J.D./LL.B) is a second degree that usually requires the student to have already completed an undergraduate degree (e.g. B.A./B.Sc. etc.) before being admitted into the professional J.D./LL.B. program of study. In Canada, the law schools in the common law provinces followed the English naming model, by which the first law degree was termed LL.B., but they followed the American admissions model by which the first law degree was a second degree which usually required a first degree as a term of admission. I think that the deciding factor has been the competition between American and Canadian lawyers (most Canadians live only a hop-skip-and-a-jump from the USA, and our economies are highly integrated). American lawyers could hang out a doctoral degree on their shingles, whereas Canadian lawyers could only hang out a bachelor’s degree on their shingles. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2009, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/93 "2009-09-27T21:43:47Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Can any university call any program it wants a first professional degree and thence a doctorate? In Canada, yes. Presently many universities that have law schools are considering or have already made the change from LL.B. to J.D. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > The only exception is an MD because (as I’ve said before) they follow up their degree with a residency that is their doctoral work. You will note that an LL.B./J.D. in Canada is followed up with about a year of a combination of further studies and articling/apprenticing. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2009, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/94 "2009-09-27T22:02:35Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > What do you mean when you say “professional doctorate”? Several of the posters have used that term, but I don’t know what you mean by it. I think that it simply means that an LL.B. is usually taken by a person so as to eventually enter into the practice of law, rather than for other career paths. Yes, I realize that the professional and reasearch career paths in law both include an LL.B. and only later differentiate between Barrister at Law (a purely professional degree awarded by the Superior Court) and Master of Laws (a purely academic/research degree awarded by a university), but by and large the LL.B. is usually pursued as a professional degree, be it a professional bachelor’s degree (LL.B) or a professional doctorate (J.D.). ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2009, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/95 "2009-09-27T22:24:32Z")
Hey you Kanukistani lawyers (Northern Piper, Spoons et alia), are you going to trade in your LL.B. for a J.D.? I will be (I just keep forgetting to do it), for several reasons: 1. When people ask what it takes to become a lawyer, I want to be able to sing the line form the kids camp Junior Birdmen song “one box top and two thin dimes.” (The upgrade from LL.B. to J.D. for my school is return of my LL.B. to them along with $60.) 2. I made a bet with a toxicologist many years ago when we were both bouncing baby grad students that I would get a doctorate before her, despite her being a lot smarter and harder working than me. She is nearing completion of her doctorate, so I can still win the bet if I trade up to a J.D. If she complains that I am weaseling by calling a J.D. a doctorate, I’ll simpy say of course, I’m a lawyer, what did you expect?" 3. My name is similar to a popular soft drink: Dr. Pepper. That, along with my background as a university teacher, has led several lawyers and a couple of judges in town to calling me Dr. [Muffin], which I find embarassing because it is not true. At least with a J.D. I won’t have to stop and correct them every time the way I do now. 4. Seriously, I’m making the switch because some of my American clients find an LL.B. confusing. They associate J.D. with lawyer, and don’t know what to make of an LL.B. I’m more concerned about attracting clients than I am about keeping an odd Canadian tradition. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2009, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/96 "2009-09-27T23:19:12Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Hey you Kanukistani lawyers (Northern Piper, Spoons et alia), are you going to trade in your LL.B. for a J.D.? That’s a good question. If the option presents itself, I don’t know what I’ll do. Sure it would be nice to have a professional doctorate that would imply the amount of education I have; but at the same time, I guess I’m a bit of a traditionalist. I don’t have to worry about it right away, since my school isn’t giving us alumni the option (yet). But they have embarked upon offering a joint LL.B./J.D. with an American school, so I guess it will be only a matter of time. Especially if most of the other Canadian schools go that way, I guess mine will too. No idea when that might be, though. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2009, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/97 "2009-09-27T23:36:18Z")
Nope. I don’t like historical revisionism. 🙂 Plus, it would interfere with the current symmetry of my degrees: LL.B., LL.B., LL.M. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2009, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/98 "2009-09-27T23:50:26Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Nope. I don’t like historical revisionism. 🙂 > > Plus, it would interfere with the current symmetry of my degrees: LL.B., LL.B., LL.M. I had a 67 Toronado that sounded like that when idling. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2009, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/99 "2009-09-27T23:55:05Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Nope. I don’t like historical revisionism. 🙂 What, don’t like appeal work? ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364/100 "2009-09-28T00:57:06Z")
My dad is a lawyer and years ago he had a coworker who referred to himself as Dr. \ because of his JD. My dad and his friends at their company - all JDs themselves - would joke about it. They all considered it hilarious and pretentious. BTW, regarding the discussion about whether or not masters degrees require a thesis, I don’t think anyone has mentioned professional masters - such as the MBA, MPH, MSW, MUP, etc., basically all masters degrees that are supposed to prepare you for a specific career outside of academia - which, AFAICT, never require a thesis. (Obviously there may be exceptions, but I’m in a professional masters program and I know lots of people also working on their degrees in different programs and none of us have to write a thesis. This is all at the same university, though.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-law-dopers-is-j-d-a-doctorate/511364.md?page=4)