# US may be alone in attack on Syria **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 28, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-may-be-alone-in-attack-on-syria/667416 "2013-08-28T17:18:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-may-be-alone-in-attack-on-syria/667416/21 "2013-08-28T22:11:01Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I actually do not think our intervention in the Syrian mess wise. However I have had fears in recent days that when the administration [I now the President himself has not used the term] said the “red line” thing President using the “red line” thing: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/obama-issues-syria-red-line-warning-on-chemical-weapons/2012/08/20/ba5d26ec-eaf7-11e1-b811-09036bcb182b\_story.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/obama-issues-syria-red-line-warning-on-chemical-weapons/2012/08/20/ba5d26ec-eaf7-11e1-b811-09036bcb182b_story.html) ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-may-be-alone-in-attack-on-syria/667416/22 "2013-08-28T22:13:21Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > US may be alone in attack on Syria Not a chance. Denmark loves a good war. The Danish (left-wing) government has been all but begging for the USA to make an official request for Danish participation. Today I heard an exasperated (socialist/marxist) Foreign Minister at least ten times say that we’re ready, but need an official request from the Americans. Goddamn it, we’re all dressed up. Give us someplace to invade, or at least bomb. ---
**Author:** ![harmonicamoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/65b543/32.png) [@harmonicamoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/harmonicamoon)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-may-be-alone-in-attack-on-syria/667416/23 "2013-08-28T22:17:22Z")
Well said **MH**. I hope Obama listens to you. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-may-be-alone-in-attack-on-syria/667416/24 "2013-08-28T22:19:47Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Not a chance. Denmark loves a good war. The Danish (left-wing) government has been all but begging for the USA to make an official request for Danish participation. Today I heard an exasperated (socialist/marxist) Foreign Minister at least ten times say that we’re ready, but need an official request from the Americans. Goddamn it, we’re all dressed up. Give us someplace to invade, or at least bomb. Well, there’s France and England and Russia . . . that would be **traditional** for you guys! 🙂 But you have to use oar-driven dragon-prowed longboats, or it’s just not playing the game! ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-may-be-alone-in-attack-on-syria/667416/25 "2013-08-28T22:21:08Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > President using the “red line” thing: > > [http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/obama-issues-syria-red-line-warning-on-chemical-weapons/2012/08/20/ba5d26ec-eaf7-11e1-b811-09036bcb182b\_story.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/obama-issues-syria-red-line-warning-on-chemical-weapons/2012/08/20/ba5d26ec-eaf7-11e1-b811-09036bcb182b_story.html) Well, I’ll have to rescind the bit of credit I was giving Obama. I’ve heard it oft-repeated that it was only administration underlings that had actually uttered the red line rhetoric, if Obama is using it too then he deserves unmitigated blame for how unwise it was. That isn’t a major change in how I view the situation, since even when I thought it was just administration underlings I saw the policy as emanating from the Oval Office in any case, so it wasn’t _that material_ as to whether Obama had actually said it. I mostly wanted to avoid people arguing with me about what Obama did or didn’t say, but since there is actually a quote of him so clearly using the red line terminology that really settles that issue. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-may-be-alone-in-attack-on-syria/667416/26 "2013-08-29T00:02:52Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > THink the Nobel Peace Prize committee is having second thoughts about now? > > They gave Obama an award for no other reason than the fact that he wasn’t George W. Bush. But as it turns out, he’s no peacenik. I’d rather the Nobel Peace Prize go to a peacemaker (which Obama has done by killing Bin Laden, decimating Al-Qaeda, and intervening in Libya) than a prattling fool who preaches peace but does nothing to bring it about. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-may-be-alone-in-attack-on-syria/667416/27 "2013-08-29T05:59:12Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > **Pjen** is getting _very_ excited. > > But [this latest Syrian atrocity](http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/22/world/europe/uk-swan-barbecued/?iref=obinsite) will make him change his tune. What a silly response! Yes, I am excited. We (the British public) have learned the lesson of Iraq and Afghanistan- military involvement rarely gives the outcome desired. Yesterday lunchtime we were off to war with Syria- the Government proposal for debate today was for a carte blanche fo action. Over a ten hour period the Government was forced to rein back their ambitions and accept a delay as the LibDems, Labour and a third of their MPs made it clear that they did not have a majority. Not to mention the opinion polls! Democracy in action. Sometimes there is wisdom in the crowd. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-may-be-alone-in-attack-on-syria/667416/28 "2013-08-29T06:00:30Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I guess it depends on how one defines “alone”. Clearly, Obama has the support of the British Prime Minister and the French President. I’m not even sure our own Congress would vote in favor of an attack, so the fact that Parliament isn’t keen on the attack isn’t all that compelling. > > Not that I support such an attack-- I don’t. But let’s not pretend that Obama is the only guy out there calling for some action to be taken. But after the Iraq and Afghan fiascos, Cameron was forced to agree that future military action would always occur only with the consent of Parliament. That consent has gone AWOL. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-may-be-alone-in-attack-on-syria/667416/29 "2013-08-29T07:38:10Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > What a silly response! > > Yes, I am excited. We (the British public) have learned the lesson of Iraq and Afghanistan- military involvement rarely gives the outcome desired. > > Yesterday lunchtime we were off to war with Syria- the Government proposal for debate today was for a carte blanche fo action. Over a ten hour period the Government was forced to rein back their ambitions and accept a delay as the LibDems, Labour and a third of their MPs made it clear that they did not have a majority. Not to mention the opinion polls! > > Democracy in action. Sometimes there is wisdom in the crowd. More like showing the fickleness and ignorance of most voters. For starters, air strikes in Syria are not remotely comparable to the ground wars waged in Iraq and Afghanistan. In cases that are actually similar to Syria: Kosovo, Bosnia, Libya, the success rate is quite positive. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-may-be-alone-in-attack-on-syria/667416/30 "2013-08-29T09:18:42Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > More like showing the fickleness and ignorance of most voters. For starters, air strikes in Syria are not remotely comparable to the ground wars waged in Iraq and Afghanistan. > > In cases that are actually similar to Syria: Kosovo, Bosnia, Libya, the success rate is quite positive. 1. We no longer respond to hysterical finger-pointing by States that have proven themselves willing to lie to our faces. 2. We do not want to be stampeded into something without full discussion and without full possession of independently established and verified facts. 3. We want it demonstrated what compelling national interest is at stake. 4. We want to know what is the good this will achieve and what slippery slope we are stepping on to. And a personal but widely shared 5. We don’t care. Put a dome over the Middle East for 5 years then shoot the one guy still standing, bloodied rock in hand. We’re sick of the whole thing. They’re going to try and kill each other over differing versions of Sky Fairies the first moment their local dicatator’s grip loosens anyway. Let them. There’s nothing we can do but make it worse. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-may-be-alone-in-attack-on-syria/667416/31 "2013-08-29T10:02:16Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > More like showing the fickleness and ignorance of most voters. For starters, air strikes in Syria are not remotely comparable to the ground wars waged in Iraq and Afghanistan. > > In cases that are actually similar to Syria: Kosovo, Bosnia, Libya, the success rate is quite positive. It all depends on what is meant by ‘successful’. I note that Bosnia, Libya and Kosovo are now totally problem free after our intervention. I wonder why we let millions die in Rwanda and get offended by a couple of hundred deaths in Syria. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-may-be-alone-in-attack-on-syria/667416/32 "2013-08-29T10:15:45Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > It all depends on what is meant by ‘successful’. I note that Bosnia, Libya and Kosovo are now totally problem free after our intervention. > > I wonder why we let millions die in Rwanda and get offended by a couple of hundred deaths in Syria. Quite. Not sure we can stand any more [‘successes’ like Libya](http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2013/08/23/libya-on-the-brink-of-chaos/). > [@](#): > > A closer look at Libya, though, reveals a country descending into lawlessness. > > In the country that is Europe’s largest supplier of oil, extrajudicial assassinations abound, foreign embassies are bombed and senior government figures quit in frustration. > > The 2011 revolution stirred Old Libya from its slumbers. Before Moammar Gadhafi and before King Idris the three provinces that now form Libya (an Italian construct, the name was adopted only in 1934) were mainly linked by the movement of Bedouin. > > More autonomy is now being sought, particularly by Cyrenaica, the most easterly province and the home to most of the country’s oil industry. > > Gadhafi held Libya together by force of will and willing use of force. In his absence it is falling apart. > > Foreign Policy says conditions for ordinary Libyans haven’t improved since the revolution—crumbling schools, filthy hospitals, endemic corruption and pollution of the coastline breed public discontent toward the government. > > And Libya’s oil industry, once a tightly run stalwart of supply to Europe, is in danger of joining the ranks of those in countries where industries are marred by unrest, theft or corruption There’s more to foreign policy that blowing the cork off the bottle with a few cruise missiles and letting the genies fight it out. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-may-be-alone-in-attack-on-syria/667416/33 "2013-08-29T10:48:26Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > There’s more to foreign policy that blowing the cork off the bottle with a few cruise missiles and letting the genies fight it out. This is a very apposite analysis. [Assad and the Road to Al Qaeda](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-kay/assad-and-the-road-to-al-qaeda_b_3702340.html) > [@](#): > > it would be a calamity to not fully consider the consequences of arming fragmented rebel forces and indirectly promoting al Qaeda objectives, amongst the backdrop of a gaping security vacuum that would exist should Assad and his regime be toppled. We must question the validity of providing huge caches of weapons to rebel groups that are fighting on volatile sectarian and ideological levels – and the ramifications that such actions will have on the already appalling humanitarian problem in the region. > [@](#): > > Experience in Afghanistan has shown us that it takes well over a decade and huge International commitments of personnel and resource to rebuild an Army and Police Force. Even after eleven years I would contest the effectiveness of the Afghan National Army and Police forces to assume a truly dominating role in fighting the Taliban insurgency. > > There is no compelling proof to suggest that the outcome in Syria would be any different. Sectarian and ideological violence is deepening compounded by very different motives of rebel factions such as the Free Syrian Army (FSA) and the al Qaeda (AQ) affiliated al-Nusra Front. Opposing Assad’s government forces is where commonality in values abruptly stops. Al-Nusra’s ideology drives Syria towards an Islamic caliphate - far from the Western sovereign based ideals, and even within AQ circles, there is feuding and infighting between the Iraqi branch of AQ and al-Nusra. > [@](#): > > You also might be disappointed if your expectations were aligned to a theory that connects any improvement of the dire humanitarian situation in Syria to the removal of Assad. 174,000 violent deaths and 2.8 million Internally Displaced Persons (IDPs) in Iraq since Saddam’s removal from power in 2003 would suggest otherwise. I understand the urge to ‘do something’ about chemical warfare if proven. I’m struggling to see what good is going to come out of it. The overthrow of Assad will just usher in the second phase of the civil war and hand the jihadists the keys to components of Assad’s armouries including WMD’s. And I’m really not going to be taking the word of any western intelligence service on what happened. The Trust Boat sailed long ago on that sort of thing and nothing that has been done since has done anything to bring it sailing back into port. All the NSA/Prism stuff just erodes my trust further and now I just assume that by default I’m being lied to for ulterior motives until I see convincing, independent evidence to the contrary. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-may-be-alone-in-attack-on-syria/667416/34 "2013-08-29T11:46:09Z")
Syria isn’t Yugoslavia. No good would come from US involvement. Even the most surgical bombing to punish Assad for his alleged use of chemical weapons would not shorten the conflict in any way nor aid any particular side. But I suppose “aid” is not the aim if “punish” is the goal. Perhaps I’m a little behind the latest news cycle but what evidence is there that the chemical attack was ordered by Assad? I don’t doubt that chemical weapons were discharged, I’m just not convinced they were discharged by Assad. I can see two other possibilities. One is that a commander in the Syrian army acted independantly. The other is that the Syrian army lost control of some of these weapons and they were discharged by one of the rebel armies. Assad’s gov’t isn’t likely to admit either one of these scenarios because it would be an obvious signal that he’s loosing control (of these weapons) and thereby practically forcing intervention by US et al. His best option is to deny the use of chemical weapons regardless of what scenario took place. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-may-be-alone-in-attack-on-syria/667416/35 "2013-08-29T12:01:00Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Perhaps I’m a little behind the latest news cycle but what evidence is there that the chemical attack was ordered by Assad? I don’t doubt that chemical weapons were discharged, I’m just not convinced they were discharged by Assad. I can see two other possibilities. One is that a commander in the Syrian army acted independantly. The other is that the Syrian army lost control of some of these weapons and they were discharged by one of the rebel armies. Assad’s gov’t isn’t likely to admit either one of these scenarios because it would be an obvious signal that he’s loosing control (of these weapons) and thereby practically forcing intervention by US et al. His best option is to deny the use of chemical weapons regardless of what scenario took place. I disagree. If a commander used them on his own initiative, Assad’s best bet would be to have him publicly executed, both to stop the rot and to send the right message to the global community. If the rebels managed to gain control of one of his launchers, that is trivially easy to spin: self-admitted allies of Al Qaeda are trying to obtain Weapons of Mass Destruction, so they can use them against civilian targets. That immediately makes Assad’s enemies America’s enemies. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-may-be-alone-in-attack-on-syria/667416/36 "2013-08-29T12:03:00Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Syria isn’t Yugoslavia. No good would come from US involvement. Even the most surgical bombing to punish Assad for his alleged use of chemical weapons would not shorten the conflict in any way nor aid any particular side. But I suppose “aid” is not the aim if “punish” is the goal. Punishment \*is \*the goal. Or rather, deterrence. There’s no way that American airstrikes will bring Assad down or save a single Syrian life. They may, however, make some other leader in some other country think twice about using chemical weapons in some point in the future, and that’s good enough for me. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-may-be-alone-in-attack-on-syria/667416/37 "2013-08-29T12:16:50Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > What a silly response! > > Yes, I am excited. We (the British public) have learned the lesson of Iraq and Afghanistan- military involvement rarely gives the outcome desired. What is silly is titling your thread “US may be alone in attack on Syria” rather than “Britain may opt out of attack on Syria”. The latter would indicate your prime interest is in keeping your country out of the conflict; the former confirms your continuing obsessive focus on whatever you think will be damaging to U.S. interests (as seen in myriad previous threads you’ve started on perceived perfidies of the United States). Personally, I doubt any short-term Clinton-style attacks on Syrian military infrastructure (especially since they’ve been telegraphed in the media) will have much positive effect. I think it’s a good thing Obama has been cautious about getting embroiled in yet another Middle East conflict. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-may-be-alone-in-attack-on-syria/667416/38 "2013-08-29T12:26:22Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > That immediately makes Assad’s enemies America’s enemies. Assad’s enemies (Al Nusra/AQ) are already America’s enemies. No-one is confusing them with US allies, nor will their gaining control of CW’s suddenly make Assad America’s friend. Things can’t be easy for Assad right now. He is winning by some accounts but he’s not making it look easy. The sure way things could get worse for him right now is if America intervenes in any way. He can’t afford to show anything but strength and control of the situation, including his complete control (and yes, even limited use) of chemical weapons. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-may-be-alone-in-attack-on-syria/667416/39 "2013-08-29T12:31:24Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Punishment \*is \*the goal. Or rather, deterrence. > > There’s no way that American airstrikes will bring Assad down or save a single Syrian life. They may, however, make some other leader in some other country think twice about using chemical weapons in some point in the future, and that’s good enough for me. Hussain used chemical weapons on the Kurds and the US invaded Iraq under the pretense of WMD’s (yeah, I know…). Assad has WMD’s and he appears to be “some other leader in some other country” who is not thinking twice about using chemical weapons. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-may-be-alone-in-attack-on-syria/667416/40 "2013-08-29T12:37:11Z")
The U.S. invaded Iraq 15 years after the last time it had used chemical weapons, \*and \*after it no longer had any chemical weapons left. I’m not surprised it wasn’t very successful as deterrence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-may-be-alone-in-attack-on-syria/667416.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-may-be-alone-in-attack-on-syria/667416.md?page=3)