# US Military, if you want more recruits how about relaxing some regs? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 6, 2004, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-if-you-want-more-recruits-how-about-relaxing-some-regs/253805 "2004-07-06T17:00:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-if-you-want-more-recruits-how-about-relaxing-some-regs/253805/61 "2004-07-07T03:23:18Z")
No, I don’t. Maybe it should be. But it’s not. If it was their responsibility, why would the Army and the Air Force have tattoo inspections post-MEPS? When you leave Basic and arrive at your unit (or you go to AIT, whatever) your tattoos are not re-inspected. For the Army, the buck stops at the Reception BN. For you, it stops at Basic. Wouldn’t you agree that the final inspection is done by those responsible? Sticking to the Army, it’s the responsibility or AG BN Drill Sergeants. Once they give the tattoo an ok, it’s clear. They’re responsible for making that decision. If it’s something blatanly obvious like a “Hitler Pissing on Jesus” tattoo, then MEPS will turn them away. You don’t need to be trained to notice something like that. But MEPS is just a pre-screen. It’s not their responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-if-you-want-more-recruits-how-about-relaxing-some-regs/253805/62 "2004-07-07T03:27:12Z")
So sticking to the OP, it would have been decent of a recruiter who was asked repeatedly about the tattoos to send pictures to the Benning drill sergeants before processing him. But that’s neither policy nor procedure. So they can’t really be faulted for not going that extra mile. But yeah, it’s gotta suck for the guy. Nothing Ill think about before going to bed or anything. Like those babies and that barber shop lady… Now THAT’s fucked up!! This merely “kinda sucks”. ---
**Author:** ![Xgemina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/b5e925/32.png) [@Xgemina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xgemina)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-if-you-want-more-recruits-how-about-relaxing-some-regs/253805/63 "2004-07-07T08:00:55Z")
Just wanted to clear up one thing on what **Bear\_Nenno** said. While the 30th AG Drill Sergeants do the tattoo inspection, its actually the 30th AG commander who makes the final decision…based on the DS recommendations of course. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-if-you-want-more-recruits-how-about-relaxing-some-regs/253805/64 "2004-07-07T10:27:03Z")
> [@Mhendo](#): > > All this does is further point up how inconsistent the system is. Fallacy of sweeping generalization. The system is in fact quite consistent. You are projecting a statistical anamoly onto the entire distribution. ---
**Author:** ![Billdo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billdo/32/315_2.png) [@Billdo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billdo)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-if-you-want-more-recruits-how-about-relaxing-some-regs/253805/65 "2004-07-07T13:45:11Z")
Would all of you people bickering over whose responsibility this was [read the fucking article](http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/208075p-179363c.html): > [@](#): > > “The review of the tattoo went to the deputy commander of the Army Recruiting Command, Brig. Gen. Peter Vangjel, and he gave it the maximum consideration before denying this man, and proper procedures were followed,” an Army spokesman said. When the question is so borderline that it has to be kicked up to a general officer to decide, it’s sort of stupid to be arguing over whether the recuiter or the drill sergant screwed up. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-if-you-want-more-recruits-how-about-relaxing-some-regs/253805/66 "2004-07-07T13:48:53Z")
Isn’t that what I just said? ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-if-you-want-more-recruits-how-about-relaxing-some-regs/253805/67 "2004-07-07T14:42:02Z")
From Captain Amazing’s link in the second post: > [@](#): > > **Question: What is an example of a tattoo that detracts from a soldierly appearance?** > > Answer: A series of tattoos or a large tattoo that covers the majority of one or more limbs would detract from a soldierly appearance. For example, if a soldier has a vine or a snake tattoo going all the way up the ankle up the leg, that tattoo would detract from a soldierly appearance. From the news article: > [@](#): > > Army brass barred Gruman because the designs - a Spider-Man-type web on one arm and a swirl of colors with a gate covering the Earth on the other - cover more than 70% of his arms. It sounds to me like this is the grounds for objection. The code also states that tatoos can be removed at army expense. I’d say the recruiter fucked up not knowing that (unless it was just brought in last week), or maybe the guy just forgot to tell the recruiter the _extent_ of his tatoo. Also, someone, either the guy, or whoever got rid of him, fucked up by not going in for removal. I’m not sure I agree with the policy, but I have to say it was explained surprisingly well on the website - I don’t know if everyone follows it though. And based on what I’ve heard of army recruiters they have a tendancy to ignore problems. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-if-you-want-more-recruits-how-about-relaxing-some-regs/253805/68 "2004-07-07T15:32:43Z")
This thread got to the second page overnight? Wow. I see others are arguing better than I could ([**World Eater** , in particular](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5040098&postcount=15)) so I’ll leave this to those who are more capable. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-if-you-want-more-recruits-how-about-relaxing-some-regs/253805/69 "2004-07-07T16:08:43Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Fallacy of sweeping generalization. The system is in fact quite consistent. You are projecting a statistical anamoly onto the entire distribution. But a system can be judged based on how it deals with the borderline cases, even if there are very few of them. After all, if a recruit has _no_ tattoos, then it will not be a issue. And if a recruit has racist tattoos covering a large percentage of his body, then this also is a fairly straightforward case. It’s in cases where there might be some doubt–likee the one described in the OP–that the system needs to be rigorous enough to work properly, and should have a enough checks in place to ensure that it does. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-if-you-want-more-recruits-how-about-relaxing-some-regs/253805/70 "2004-07-07T18:16:29Z")
> [@Jeff Olsen](#): > > This thread got to the second page overnight? Wow. > > I see others are arguing better than I could ([**World Eater** , in particular](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5040098&postcount=15)) so I’ll leave this to those who are more capable. Thanks dude, it was a lucky post. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![1010011010](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/ea666f/32.png) [@1010011010](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1010011010)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-if-you-want-more-recruits-how-about-relaxing-some-regs/253805/71 "2004-07-07T23:13:24Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > I agree with that. But those other guys you mention should be dishonorably discharged. Why? They do their jobs well, and the colors of their skin doesn’t affect that. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-if-you-want-more-recruits-how-about-relaxing-some-regs/253805/72 "2004-07-08T01:41:44Z")
> [@1010011010](#): > > Why? They do their jobs well, and the colors of their skin doesn’t affect that. Because they’re promoting anarchy in an organization where life and death depend on rules, order, command and control. Not to mention that they’re blatantly defying regulations for the simple sake of defying them. Part of a soldier’s job is to conform to regulations. By getting tattoos on their ears and knuckles, they are _not_ doing their job well. Why can’t they just wait until they get out to get those types of tats? ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-if-you-want-more-recruits-how-about-relaxing-some-regs/253805/73 "2004-07-08T01:44:02Z")
Maybe discharge _would_ be a bit harsh though. Perhaps a slap upside the head and removal of those tattoos would be the answer. However, if they refuse to have them removed, then they should be discharged. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-if-you-want-more-recruits-how-about-relaxing-some-regs/253805/74 "2004-07-08T02:00:00Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > Is that just FYI? Or do you not consider at tattoo that says “Hey look, I’m a felon AND proud!” to be “_prejudicial to good order and discipline_”. Just a FYI. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-if-you-want-more-recruits-how-about-relaxing-some-regs/253805/75 "2004-07-08T02:02:30Z")
BTW I thought that the US armed forces didn’t take felons??? ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-if-you-want-more-recruits-how-about-relaxing-some-regs/253805/76 "2004-07-08T02:21:23Z")
> [@Machetero](#): > > BTW I thought that the US armed forces didn’t take felons??? That’s a good point and something I was considering today. Convicted felons are not allowed to possess firearms, so that kind of makes being a soldier difficult. If it was a jail tattoo, then he would have been a felon anyway. So if he’s not a felon, it’s not a jail tat… “‘Curiouser and curiouser’, thought Alice” I really am considering sending some emails to those involved to see what the official decision was, and WHY. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-if-you-want-more-recruits-how-about-relaxing-some-regs/253805/77 "2004-07-08T02:28:35Z")
After looking at the pics. The tats really look more like “nerd tats” than “bad guy tats.” ---
**Author:** ![qcomdrj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/a6a055/32.png) [@qcomdrj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qcomdrj)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-if-you-want-more-recruits-how-about-relaxing-some-regs/253805/78 "2004-07-08T03:21:52Z")
Regulations are regulations, regardless of how mundane and pointless they may be. Father has spent 20 years in the military. Brother has eczema and asthma, DQ’d before MEPS. WAAAAAY before MEPS. Me, on the other hand, have one single screw in my right knee. To Enlist (or correctly, direct commission now), I would have to have it removed. Pointless painful surgery to remove a vestigial surgical implement. Could do more damage than leaving it. Did I mention I got a 99 on the ASVAB. Did you know you can’t score higher than that. I still wasn’t worthy. My dad shakes his head every day. He works in logistics, so he has to fill all the holes. Square pegs fit in square holes, but apparently round ones don’t. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-if-you-want-more-recruits-how-about-relaxing-some-regs/253805/79 "2004-07-08T04:01:20Z")
> [@redtail23](#): > > So what justifies their decision, particularly after he’s asked repeatedly to be sure there wouldn’t be a problem? I’m not sure if this “justifies” it, but perhaps it will explain it a bit better. From what I’ve seen of the army folks on the military base on which we had contracts, they dress similarly in the summer to the uniform requirements in the Air Force. That is that they have the uniform sleeves rolled up in a certain way. Also, they wear short sleeved tee shirts for PT. Also, army personnel doing “base beautification” are allowed to wear the short sleeved tee shirts. So there are times when he’d be showing his tattoos even during army training, or army sponsored tasks. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-if-you-want-more-recruits-how-about-relaxing-some-regs/253805/80 "2004-07-08T11:04:30Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > But a system can be judged based on how it deals with the borderline cases, even if there are very few of them. > > After all, if a recruit has _no_ tattoos, then it will not be a issue. And if a recruit has racist tattoos covering a large percentage of his body, then this also is a fairly straightforward case. It’s in cases where there might be some doubt–likee the one described in the OP–that the system needs to be rigorous enough to work properly, and should have a enough checks in place to ensure that it does. I disagree. I think regulations about such things ought to be intentionally vague in order to allow for human judgment. This ain’t presidential succession; it’s some tattooed slacker wanting someone else to deal with his own poor decisions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-if-you-want-more-recruits-how-about-relaxing-some-regs/253805.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-if-you-want-more-recruits-how-about-relaxing-some-regs/253805.md?page=5)