# US military in torture scandal **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 30, 2004, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829 "2004-04-30T11:18:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/1 "2004-04-30T11:18:09Z")
> [@](#): > > [US military in torture scandal > Use of private contractors in Iraqi jail interrogations highlighted by inquiry into abuse of prisoners > Julian Borger in Washington > Friday April 30, 2004 > The Guardian](http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1206725,00.html) > > Graphic photographs showing the torture and sexual abuse of Iraqi prisoners in a US-run prison outside Baghdad emerged yesterday from a military inquiry which has left six soldiers facing a possible court martial and a general under investigation. > > The scandal has also brought to light the growing and largely unregulated role of private contractors in the interrogation of detainees. > > According to lawyers for some of the soldiers, they claimed to be acting in part under the instruction of mercenary interrogators hired by the Pentagon. > > \ > > Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt, deputy director of operations for the US military in Iraq, expressed his embarrassment and regret for what had happened. He told the CBS current affairs programme 60 Minutes II: “If we can’t hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect, we can’t ask that other nations do that to our soldiers.” > > \ > > The killing of four private contractors in Falluja on March 31 led to the current siege of the city. > > But this is the first time the privatisation of interrogation and intelligence-gathering has come to light. The investigation names two US contractors, CACI International Inc and the Titan Corporation, for their involvement in Abu Ghraib. > > Titan, based in San Diego, describes itself as a “a leading provider of comprehensive information and communications products, solutions and services for national security”. It recently won a big contract for providing translation services to the US army. Way to go, Rumsfeld, you stupid asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/2 "2004-04-30T11:27:25Z")
Extra links: > [@](#): > > [Abuse Of Iraqi POWs By GIs Probed > CBS > April 29, 2004](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/27/60II/main614063.shtml) > > Last month, the U.S. Army announced 17 soldiers in Iraq, including a brigadier general, had been removed from duty after charges of mistreating Iraqi prisoners. > > But the details of what happened have been kept secret, until now. > > It turns out photographs surfaced showing American soldiers abusing and humiliating Iraqis being held at a prison near Baghdad. The Army investigated, and issued a scathing report. > [@](#): > > [NYTimes > G.I.'s Are Accused of Abusing Iraqi Captives > By JAMES RISEN > Published: April 29, 2004](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/29/politics/29ABUS.html) > > WASHINGTON, April 28 — American soldiers at a prison outside Baghdad have been accused of forcing Iraqi prisoners into acts of sexual humiliation and other abuses in order to make them talk, according to officials and others familiar with the charges. > > The charges, first announced by the military in March, were documented by photographs taken by guards inside the prison, but were not described in detail until some of the pictures were made public. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/3 "2004-04-30T11:31:54Z")
> [@Desmostylus](#): > > Way to go, Rumsfeld, you stupid asshole. And Rummy gets the blame because…? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/4 "2004-04-30T11:31:59Z")
Pre-emptive strike: “Just a few bad apples, doesn’t reflect policy, proper disciplinary procedure, bla bla bla”. Anyone else think this gives more credence to the allegations of abuse from former Guantanamo prisoners? ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/5 "2004-04-30T11:33:33Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > …Anyone else think this gives more credence to the allegations of abuse from former Guantanamo prisoners? No. But it does show that the US Army is capable of policing its own actions. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/6 "2004-04-30T11:35:01Z")
> [@](#): > > One of the soldiers, Staff Sgt Chip Frederick is accused of posing in a photograph sitting on top of a detainee, committing an indecent act and with assault for striking detainees - and ordering detainees to strike each other. > > He told CBS: “We had no support, no training whatsoever. And I kept asking my chain of command for certain things … like rules and regulations.” My head is spinning. “I asked them for the rules and regs, man. But I didn’t get anything, so I sat on this guy an committed an indecent act.” 😕😕 ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/7 "2004-04-30T11:37:31Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > No. But it does show that the US Army is capable of policing its own actions. Covered that already: “proper disciplinary procedure, bla bla bla”. It also shows the US Army is capable of sexual torture, which is one of the allegations about GITMO that was summarily dismissed here as propagandistic tinfoil hattery. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/8 "2004-04-30T11:41:24Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > Covered that already: “proper disciplinary procedure, bla bla bla”. > > It also shows the US Army is capable of sexual torture, which is one of the allegations about GITMO that was summarily dismissed here as propagandistic tinfoil hattery. No. If these allegations are proven true, it shows that a few soldiers are capable of whatever is proven that they did. Pretty much any large enough sample of people will have a few wackos among them, but that doesn’t indict the whole group, does it? Or have the rules recently changed? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/9 "2004-04-30T11:43:12Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > No. If these allegations are proven true, it shows that a few soldiers are capable of whatever is proven that they did. Did that one too, **Brutus** : “Just a few bad apples”. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/10 "2004-04-30T11:43:55Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > And Rummy gets the blame because…? Sorry, should’ve made that more clear. It’s Rummy’s “new military”, where non-core functions are out sourced to “civilian contractors”, i.e., mercenaries, who are now apparently in charge of torturing prisoners. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/11 "2004-04-30T11:46:13Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > Did that one too, **Brutus** : “Just a few bad apples”. Congratulations. The fact that you listed three sensible points, then followed with a ‘bla bla bla’, does not negate those three points you know. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/12 "2004-04-30T11:54:32Z")
You say ‘sensible’, I say ‘knee-jerk’. ---
**Author:** ![Achilles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dc4da7/32.png) [@Achilles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achilles)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/13 "2004-04-30T12:00:04Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > No. If these allegations are proven true, it shows that a few soldiers are capable of whatever is proven that they did. Pretty much any large enough sample of people will have a few wackos among them, but that doesn’t indict the whole group, does it? Or have the rules recently changed? Gotta go with jjimm on this one. Brutus, you’re being a little naive and gullible. The US Army seems to be unable to police itself. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/14 "2004-04-30T12:07:27Z")
17 and a general all in the same prison seems like too many bad apples on a single bunch. YMMV ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/15 "2004-04-30T12:07:47Z")
> [@Achilles](#): > > Gotta go with jjimm on this one. Brutus, you’re being a little naive and gullible. Probably, but not regarding this issue. After all, if you were to discount the three sensible points that **jjimm** brings up, then you are left with, “The Army is a torture factory”, which is obviously not true. > [@](#): > > The US Army seems to be unable to police itself. Sure it does. Actions in violation of the UCMJ may have occurred, and the Army is investigating, as they have done in the past. If the allegations are proven true, then some people are going to be cooling it in Leavenworth for a while. ‘Policing itself’ does not only mean that efforts will be made that certain actions will not occur; It also means that if they do occur, the Army will take care of those who committed them. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/16 "2004-04-30T12:08:42Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > No. But it does show that the US Army is capable of policing its own actions. Well no all it shows is that when wankers take photos and pass them around they get caught. If these Iraqis had of got out of wherever they were and said that these things happened you’d be the first to dismiss them as anti-US properganda merchants. I don’t think that all accusations should be just believed but it does show that these things are possibly happening. The accusations from GITMO are stronger now IMO. One thing is sure these pricks have handed the anti-US people a very large stick. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/17 "2004-04-30T12:10:30Z")
Propaganda ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/18 "2004-04-30T12:13:20Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Probably, but not regarding this issue. After all, if you were to discount the three sensible points that **jjimm** brings up, then you are left with, “The Army is a torture factory”, which is obviously not true. Actually, of the three ‘sensible’ suggestions, the middle one: “not offical policy”, is the one I, of course, do believe. Question is, how far up does the negligence extend? How much leeway is given by other senior officers at other detention facilities? How much tolerance of degradation and humiliation is there throughout all of the US’s detention facilities? Is it even possible that this incident is wholly isolated, or is there the remotest chance that abuses may be several, if not widespread? Serious questions. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/19 "2004-04-30T12:18:24Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > No. If these allegations are proven true, it shows that a few soldiers are capable of whatever is proven that they did. Pretty much any large enough sample of people will have a few wackos among them, but that doesn’t indict the whole group, does it? Or have the rules recently changed? The thing is, the Army - any army - isn’t just any group of people, it’s a self-regulating, self-policing group of people, and it’s organized to prevent things like this. Bad apples are indeed inevitable, but the military is supposed to have a system in place that prevents incidents like this. The fact that they happened is a bad sign from an organizational point of view. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/20 "2004-04-30T12:22:40Z")
And the fact that they had no training or backup from their commanding officers. Is this a single incident as well? How many other untrained unsupported people are guarding prisoners etc.? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829.md?page=2)