# US military in torture scandal **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 30, 2004, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829 "2004-04-30T11:18:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/242 "2004-05-04T05:32:54Z")
> [@](#): > > The administration is hoping that positive images of U.S. soldiers building schools and medical clinics will help counter those photos. The U.S.-funded Arabic Al-Hurra, Al-Iraqiya and the Middle East broadcast network are prime outlets for airing such flattering images, the official said. [White House Hopes for Iraq Turning Point](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=536&e=4&u=/ap/20040504/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_iraq) ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/243 "2004-05-04T05:38:25Z")
Seriously though (and I should have a lot more sway with you now that your brains have been eaten), what are we really going to accomplish by simply pulling out? For better or worse, we went in there: we instigated a massive change in this country, tore down every institution that it had. Isn’t it our responsibility to see it through now? To rebuild what we tore down? I certainly think that Iraqis cannot really trust us after this massive PR disaster. But we ARE the real security there now. We are the controlling force that prevents Iraq from turning into… well… what Afghanistan has basically now become after our neglect of it: a mass of tribal grudges and fiefdoms. What better alternative do we have other than staying for as long as it takes to ensure a transition to a better government? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/244 "2004-05-04T08:24:32Z")
Here’s the OP from my GD thread on this. I’m reproducing some of it here because this seems to be the place where the torture issues are being discussed, and I want some answers about this if anybody’s got 'em. I’m in a real tizzy about this issue because if it’s true, we just pissed off another billion people for absolutely no defensible reason. * * * Splashed on the front page of the Hindustan Times this morning: > [@](#): > > **Indians abused at US military camp in Iraq** > > This is the account of Indians with visas for Kuwait ending up as slaves in US military camps in Battlefield Iraq. > > In August 2003, 25 such workers — of whom Hameed, Shajahan and two others were from Kerala — paid Rs 75,000 each to obtain Kuwaiti work visas. In Kuwait, they were told they were to travel for two days to reach the work site. “When the journey ended we realised we were in Baghdad. We were handed over to another agent who took us to a military camp in Mosul,” says Hameed. > > The Americans in the camp told the Indians that they had purchased them for a hefty amount, and that they were to work in the kitchen and do other odd jobs.[…] > > “We were slaves in American kitchens. We barely got two hours of sleep. Any slip-ups and we were tortured for days," says Hameed. > > “Once I told the kitchen in-charge that as I was a devout Muslim I could not cook pork. I was beaten up with rifle butts,” says Hameed’s brother Shahjahan. > > “Iraqi militia attacked our camps several times. At times, officers used us as shields,” adds Hameed. […] > > Once they realised they had been duped and sold to the US military, they waited for a chance to escape. […] > > Their ordeal ended on April 28 when they arrived in Mumbai. But it continues for many more Indians in Iraq. Shajahan claims that he met least 70 Indians in American camps in Iraq. Can this be true? It is certainly plausible that some Indian temporary workers ended up in Iraq; lots of Indians (especially Indian Muslims) get work visas for temporary employment in the Middle East, and the companies that arrange this employment are often pretty unscrupulous, resulting in what’s basically indentured servitude and severe abuses for some Indian employees. But can the US military have been involved in these sorts of abuses? It’s appalling to think so, and ghod knows this sort of press is the last thing we need right now, inflaming anti-American resentment even in India, which by Asian standards is pretty pro-US. […] ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/245 "2004-05-04T15:45:00Z")
> [@Johnny G](#): > > [http://www.tdn.com/articles/2004/05/03/nation\_world/news03.txt](http://www.tdn.com/articles/2004/05/03/nation_world/news03.txt) This is what sexism is all about, folks. Torture is designed to make you feel like a woman. As is Islam. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/246 "2004-05-04T16:00:59Z")
It is my most fervant wish that you’re wrong **Kimstu**. But, I’m no longer saying things like “that couldn’t happen, we couldn’t be that stupid”. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/247 "2004-05-04T16:38:32Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > H. L. Mencken would have put his foot up **your** ass 'til it hit your tonsils. > > You made no “free inquiry.” You only embarassed yourself. And continue to do so. I couldn’t possibly answer to all the hysterical shrieks, but your extremely idiotic statement still puzzles me. ‘Free inquiry’ means one can ask any question. How can you maintain that certain questions shouldn’t be asked, because they are contrary to the spirit of ‘free inquiry’? ---
**Author:** ![GKW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d9b06d/32.png) [@GKW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GKW)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/248 "2004-05-04T19:29:48Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > What are the alternatives to occupation? If we leave now, we leave the job unfinished, the nation still in ruins. Remember that in addition to the fighting, the US is rebuilding all sorts of things around the country, and protecting projects that are important to getting clean water and power to people around the country. SOMEONE has to keep doing these things Why does the US have to be physically present when we are just pissing off the Iraqis? Why couldn’t we ask the UN to take over and foot the bill? Personally, I think the US should totally fund the reconstruction process. We should pour money into that place like there’s no tomorrow. We need to keep at it until every Iraqi has clean water, electricity, telephone, the option for some kind of job training or education, and feel safe to walk the streets. I draw the line at building amusement parks. If the other countries don’t have enough troops, give them more money to recruit. I mean, for crying out loud, who the hell do we think we are invading another country and leaving it’s infrastructure worse than it was? Who the hell do we think we are that we can impose democracy on another country - but only if they elect the “right” candidates? If they want a theocracy, they should be able to elect one. Maybe if we want Iraq to be an ally we should ask them to hold elections on June 30th and then work for the person elected. Let them know we are there to serve and do it with a smile. I don’t care if makes our economy go belly-up. we need to be held accountable for our actions. Another thing that freaks me out is that women were involved in the torture. I don’t know why that bothers me so much – I should know by now that anyone is capable of evil under certain conditions but it just still shocks the hell out of me. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/249 "2004-05-05T00:39:45Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > We are talking about application of an ancient ‘an eye for an eye’ principle. An eye for an eye makes the entire world blind. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/250 "2004-05-05T02:01:57Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > An eye for an eye makes the entire world blind. Quite. We are only talking, though. ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/251 "2004-05-05T02:06:07Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Quite. We are only talking, though. “Sticks and stones may break your bones, but words cause permanent damage.” - Talk Radio ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/252 "2004-05-05T02:29:00Z")
Heh, if anybody in the Midwest is interested, it sounds like Walter Jacobsen on FOX news is going to try and defend the torturers in a few minutes… in the teaser he pondered why anyone would act like they did, and asked something like “could it be because Americans are in danger?” This was a sincere question, but I don’t see the relevance. Likewise, I think they showed footage of the Fallujah rioting over his question, and the rioting that included those mutilations happened _after_ these abuses… ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/253 "2004-05-05T02:51:25Z")
Yeah… that was definitely the worst thing I’ve ever seen on the news. Not just bullshit, TOTAL bullshit, and very misleadingly done, too. (A lot of it was ‘imagine your buddy has just been blown away, and what his kids will think if they see his body hung from a bridge on the evening news’-type stuff.) The idea was basically what the prison guards did was bad, but it’s understandable because things in Iraq are bad, and it rested on the idea that the prisoners knew something related to the insurgency- which we’ve already confirmed most of them they didn’t. Yuck. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/254 "2004-05-05T03:07:47Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Quite. We are only talking, though. How the fuck would you know? You’ve been blinded by hate ever since obviously deffective forceps brought into this world agaisnt your parens will/hope. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/255 "2004-05-05T04:07:57Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > …I think they showed footage of the Fallujah rioting over his question, and the rioting that included those mutilations happened _after_ these abuses… In all fairness, somebody was trying to insinuate that Falluja incident was a revenge for this abuses, in the beginning of this very thread. Both sides are prone to wishful thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/256 "2004-05-05T04:44:01Z")
> [@](#): > > In all fairness, somebody was trying to insinuate that Falluja incident was a revenge for this abuses, in the beginning of this very thread. Both sides are prone to wishful thinking. The problem being that the ‘riots-as-revenge’ idea is at least _plausible_, while implying that riots in April gave the soldiers good cause for crimes committed in January is just DUMB. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/257 "2004-05-05T05:03:43Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The problem being that the ‘riots-as-revenge’ idea is at least _plausible_, while implying that riots in April gave the soldiers good cause for crimes committed in January is just DUMB. No argument. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/258 "2004-05-05T06:53:55Z")
> [@GKW](#): > > Why does the US have to be physically present when we are just pissing off the Iraqis? Why couldn’t we ask the UN to take over and foot the bill? Because they aren’t willing to? Did you not notice that the U.N. LEFT the country because it could not ensure its own safety after the major bombing? The nations who are willing to send troops are already there, and some are leaving. Who do you think is going to supply troops in large enough numbers at this point? > [@](#): > > If the other countries don’t have enough troops, give them more money to recruit. We aren’t ever going to be in the business of funding the militaries of other countries. You think any American taxpayer would ever go for that? > [@](#): > > I mean, for crying out loud, who the hell do we think we are invading another country and leaving it’s infrastructure worse than it was? Who the hell do we think we are that we can impose democracy on another country - but only if they elect the “right” candidates? Well, in the real world, there is no such thing as “who the hell do we think we are.” We are the people that DID invade, and that’s that. Now comes being realistic about how we are going to make the best of the situation we have. ---
**Author:** ![gouda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c77e96/32.png) [@gouda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gouda)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/259 "2004-05-05T16:15:20Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > But can the US military have been involved in these sorts of abuses? It’s appalling to think so, and ghod knows this sort of press is the last thing we need right now, inflaming anti-American resentment even in India, which by Asian standards is pretty pro-US. […] The shit hasn’t hit the fan here just yet. But that’s probably because the country is going through the final stages of general elections. There have been reports about this topic in the papers here, but nothing on the scale that it deserves. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/260 "2004-05-05T18:43:46Z")
Turns out it was all no big deal after all: > [@](#): > > RUSH: Exactly. Exactly my point! This is no different than what happens at the skull and bones initiation and we’re going to ruin people’s lives over it and we’re going to hamper our military effort, and then we are going to really hammer them because they had a good time. You know, these people are being fired at every day. I’m talking about people having a good time, these people, you ever heard of emotional release? You of heard of need to blow some steam off? Sure, I remember getting beaten and ass raped in college: shit that was just all in good fun! Some of the things done were indeed pretty juvenile. But comparing it to a fraternity hazing is wrong on so many levels: -these were prisoners, not willing pledges -these prisoners knew they were under total domination by their captors, they were not boys who know that college justice and police exist if someone goes too far -they were Muslims, to whom these things are the farthest thing from funny hazing: they are deadly, mortally seriously abhorrent -and so on, do the math yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/261 "2004-05-06T00:02:09Z")
I searched the _Globe Online_ for an article that I read over breakfast this morning, but it’s not in their online edition. [This seems to be the same article over at the _NYT_](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/05/international/middleeast/05INMA.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5062&en=2e98135db944e025&ex=1084334400&partner=GOOGLE), though. Hayder Sabbar Abd, apparently one of the pictured inmates, talks about his experience in Abu Ghraib. Well, by golly, **New Iskander** , it turns out he _was_ one of “Saddam’s henchmen.” At least, he used to serve in the Republican Guard, before he got knocked back to regular army as punishment for desertion. Seems like a human being, for all that. Of course, you might balk at giving any credence at all to the word of an enemy combatant, but the fellow seems quite credible. He is careful to point out that his general experience of American captivity was as good as captivity can be expected to be, and that he was treated respectfully and humanely – except at Abu Ghraib. Beaten nearly to death, stripped naked, forced to simulate sex with other men, masturbate for the amusement of Private Lynndie England (Ms. Thumbs-up) and then left to sleep naked and hooded on a wet floor. For ten days. Some “hazing.” Kappa Kappa Kappa, maybe. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829.md?page=14)