# US military in torture scandal **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 30, 2004, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829 "2004-04-30T11:18:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/262 "2004-05-06T00:24:42Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > Well, by golly, …it turns out he _was_ one of “Saddam’s henchmen.” At least, he used to serve in the Republican Guard, before he got knocked back to regular army as punishment for desertion. The NYT article doesn’t mention any of that. Where did you get that info? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/263 "2004-05-06T00:35:15Z")
> [@](#): > > U.S. soldiers who detained an elderly Iraqi woman last year placed a harness on her, made her crawl on all fours and rode her like a donkey, Prime Minister Tony Blair’s personal human rights envoy to Iraq said Wednesday [U.S. Troops Said to Mistreat Elder Iraqi](http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=518&u=/ap/20040505/ap_on_re_eu/britain_iraq_us_prisoner_abuse&printer=1) ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/264 "2004-05-06T00:42:03Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > Turns out it was all no big deal after all: > > RUSH: Exactly. Exactly my point! This is no different than what happens at the skull and bones initiation and we’re going to ruin people’s lives over it and we’re going to hamper our military effort, and then we are going to really hammer them because they had a good time. You know, these people are being fired at every day. I’m talking about people having a good time, these people, you ever heard of emotional release? You of heard of need to blow some steam off? > > Sure, I remember getting beaten and ass raped in college: shit that was just all in good fun! Come on, it’s not like it was really serious…you know, something like oral sex between two consenting adults. I wonder what Rush would think about it if they took away some A-Rab’s oxycontin and made him suffer through withdrawl symptoms… -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/265 "2004-05-06T00:43:28Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Where did you get that info? On the [second page](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/05/international/middleeast/05INMA.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5062&en=2e98135db944e025&ex=1084334400&partner=GOOGLE): > [@](#): > > He said he had served 18 years in the Iraqi military, for a time in the Republican Guard, Mr. Hussein’s elite troops. But he said he had deserted several times and was demoted to the regular army, where he was serving when American troops invaded Iraq last March. Re: the donkey-riders-- Suffering Christ! What the _fuck?_ Are they issuing “go-pills” on the ground now? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/266 "2004-05-06T00:53:44Z")
[In the spirit of utter unfairness to the incompetents presiding over this debacle] **Bush to Ban Personal Cameras at Military Prisons:** > [@](#): > > MR. McCLELLAN: He is not happy about what occurred in these images that people saw last week. And he wants to make sure that strong steps are taken to stop that from happening again, and that those responsible are held accountable. And that’s what the military is doing. And that’s where the President’s focus is. [here](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/05/20040505-3.html) [/In the spirit of utter unfairness to the incompetents presiding over this debacle] Well, it _could_ mean that. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/267 "2004-05-06T01:58:30Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > [In the spirit of utter unfairness to the incompetents presiding over this debacle] > > **Bush to Ban Personal Cameras at Military Prisons:** > [here](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/05/20040505-3.html) > > [/In the spirit of utter unfairness to the incompetents presiding over this debacle] > > Well, it _could_ mean that. Ah. Good. Looks like the General just got around to telling Group Captain Mandrake to confiscate all the personal radios on the base. I feel safer now. Anyone who didn’t at least expect something like this was happening (it’s just human nature for shit like that to happen when you put people in power over others - ever seen a Cinemax women in prison movie?) was a fool. But banning cameras because of this? What the fuck? Garofalo was right - support for this administration has reached the point where it’s a character flaw. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/268 "2004-05-06T02:49:59Z")
The “banning cameras” thing is **Squink** ’s joke, **'jeek** , based on reading McLellan’s statement about Bush’s concern as relating to the fact that people _saw_ the images in the photos, not that the scenes depicted therein actually took place. I think we need a new diagetic sound effect for the SDMB: _ **Whooos-thunk** _. (For those ones that sail over someone’s head and then fall flat anyway.) 😛 ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/269 "2004-05-06T03:52:42Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > On the second page Thanks much. Looks like we finally getting some information about the abused people, thanks to NYT and ‘Larry Mudd’. First, this guy was not POW. He was arrested at some kind of checkpoint trouble. Second, he was a member of some jail gang, total 7 people. W don’t know how many of them were POW. Third, there was a jail-yard fight, in which there was a ‘victim’, who pointed this guy and his 6 friends to US jail guards. We still don’t know what happened to the ‘victim’. Those 7 were given hell by US jail guards for 10 days. What can I say? Two things: 1. Stay out of prison. 2. Once inside, try the best behaviour. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/270 "2004-05-06T04:16:05Z")
I am starting to get the distinct impression that our friend **New Iskander** secretly yearns to be a prison guard. Better yet a stockade MP. For god’s sake, man, even our President has condemned it, or maybe just taking photographs of it. Why do you persist in seeming to think the torture and abuse of prisoners, whether sentenced criminals, prisoners of war, people detained without hearing or under some new and previously unenunciated form of state prisoner, is a neat idea and simple natural justice? It’s an old joke, but it is starting to look as if the Administration and some of its goofier champions think that in order to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqis it is first necessary to separate their heads from the bodies . ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/271 "2004-05-06T04:20:58Z")
That’s very reassuring. We are advised that it is entirely possible that one of the Iraqi persons abused might very well have deserved it. The efficiency is striking, considering how such “rough justice” dispenses with such limp-wristed bushwah as “rule of law” and “trials”. So you can’t say they were _all_ innocent victims, since we got this one guy who might be guilty of something. Gee. I feel so much better now. Knowing that, I mean. ---
**Author:** ![Gest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Gest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gest)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/272 "2004-05-06T04:29:00Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > We aren’t ever going to be in the business of funding the militaries of other countries. You think any American taxpayer would ever go for that? Tell me you’re engaging in extremely understated sarcasm here. Y’all fund foreign militaries like no other country in history ever has. Granted, all in the aid of democracy and human rights though. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/273 "2004-05-06T04:39:35Z")
[url=]More torture shit. Does it ever fucking end? And for God’s sake **Iskander** , “stay out of prison?” Is that the best you can fucking do? “Prison gang?” Are you serious? Tell me this, is Bush full of shit to say this stuff is appalling? Was Condi Rice wrong to apologize for it? Is it right or is it wrong. If you think it’s wrong then fuck your justifications. If you think it’s right then fuck _you_. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/274 "2004-05-06T04:41:21Z")
[Fixed link for that new torture shit.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5623-2004May5.html) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/275 "2004-05-06T04:45:32Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > We aren’t ever going to be in the business of funding the militaries of other countries. You think any American taxpayer would ever go for that? This might be the first time I’ve ever disagreed with you but I think you’re forgetting about a little place in the Middle East called Israel? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/276 "2004-05-06T04:51:43Z")
> [@](#): > > Tell me this, is Bush full of shit to say this stuff is appalling? Was Condi Rice wrong to apologize for it? Well, if I were to hazard a guess, perhaps what **N\_I** believes is that the Prez and Ms. Rice were simply going through the motions to calm down those annoying peaceniks who seem to spend so much time trying to piss on their parade. I don’t know, really; I’m just speculatin’. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/277 "2004-05-06T05:56:43Z")
> [@](#): > > The White House has apologised for the abuses committed by US prison guards in Iraq after President George W Bush stopped short of doing so. > … > White House aides have let it be known privately that Mr Rumsfeld received a dressing-down from President Bush over his handling of the controversial pictures. > > The BBC’s Justin Webb reports from Washington that Mr Rumsfeld is under the greatest political pressure of his life. > > **It is possible that he could be forced to resign** , our correspondent says. [White House apologises for abuses](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3688645.stm) The possibility of a Rummy departure is looking less and less unthinkable: [Rumsfeld resign](http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&edition=us&ie=ascii&q=Rumsfeld+resign) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/278 "2004-05-06T06:42:35Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > [Fixed link for that new torture shit.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5623-2004May5.html) No, you didn’t. That links to a subscription link. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/279 "2004-05-06T06:45:32Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No, you didn’t. That links to a subscription link. So register. It’s not as if the president will ship you off to Gitmo for reading the Washington Post. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/280 "2004-05-06T10:00:03Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Is it right or is it wrong. If you think it’s wrong then fuck your justifications. If you think it’s right then fuck _you_. Let’s consider my justifications, what might they be? Oh, yes, that almost overlooked victim, who suffered unspecified damage at the hands of those 7. What happened to him? Who cares, fuck him! Can’t blame that on Bush, right? Of course, under different circumstances you could. If US guards turned a blind eye to prison gangs and let them victimize other people, for example, that would be Bush fault. But that didn’t happen, so fuck the ‘victim’! We have a bigger fish to fry! Elections are nigh! What’s your next move? Oh, yes, “If you think it’s right then fuck _you_”. Calumny time! There is enough material in this thread alone to support a handful of PhD thesises in mob psychology and mass hysteria among the US Left. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/281 "2004-05-06T12:50:19Z")
OK, friends, one of two things has happened here. Option one is that the torture of prisoners as a means of softening them up for interrogation and put them in a proper frame of mind to talk is policy and standard operating procedure. Option Two is that US commanders lost control of their people and did not even try to reassert it until it became a public scandal despite internal investigations and reports (which apparently nobody bothered to read) saying it was going on. Now, which option is the more praiseworthy / reprehensible? Are we sadists or are we just abysmally negligent? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829.md?page=15)