# US military in torture scandal **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 30, 2004, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829 "2004-04-30T11:18:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![plnnr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@plnnr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plnnr)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/282 "2004-05-06T13:01:48Z")
Some very good points made here as to accountability [http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A5837-2004May5?language=printer](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A5837-2004May5?language=printer) ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/283 "2004-05-06T13:21:20Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > The “banning cameras” thing is **Squink** ’s joke, **'jeek** , based on reading McLellan’s statement about Bush’s concern as relating to the fact that people _saw_ the images in the photos, not that the scenes depicted therein actually took place. > > I think we need a new diagetic sound effect for the SDMB: _ **Whooos-thunk** _. > > (For those ones that sail over someone’s head and then fall flat anyway.) 😛 It didn’t go over my head - it went straight into my forehead and stuck there. That’s why I couldn’t see it…it’s certainly not because I’m a total dumbass. I blame it on putting in 30 hours before the end of Tuesday. That’s my story, and by god I’m sticking to it! -Joe, Colonel “Dumbass” Batguano ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/284 "2004-05-06T13:36:03Z")
> [@Spavined Gelding](#): > > OK, friends, one of two things has happened here. Option one is that the torture of prisoners as a means of softening them up for interrogation and put them in a proper frame of mind to talk is policy and standard operating procedure. Rush Limbaugh, among others, has made a case for that. Apparently it’s OK to torture someone as long as you’re not asking them questions at the same time. However, I’m unclear if this includes questions like “Who’s your daddy?” This, in my opinion, creates a dangerous gray area in which ordinary soldiers may be unsure about proper torture protocol, and require direct input from their already overtaxed superiors. Perhaps we need to make American torturing techniques part of everyone’s basic training. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/285 "2004-05-06T14:37:56Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Let’s consider my justifications, what might they be? Oh, yes, that almost overlooked victim, who suffered unspecified damage at the hands of those 7. What happened to him? Who cares, fuck him! Can’t blame that on Bush, right? > > Of course, under different circumstances you could. If US guards turned a blind eye to prison gangs and let them victimize other people, for example, that would be Bush fault. But that didn’t happen, so fuck the ‘victim’! We have a bigger fish to fry! Elections are nigh! “Prison gang” [snort] That old lady who soldiers forced down on all fours and rode around like a horse- was she in a prison gang? At least two wo killings of Iraqi detainees that the military has _admitted_ were murders? Prison gangsters, I suppose? The teenage boy who was raped- that’ll show those prison gangsters. I’m sure that protocol must be in the Geneva Convention somewhere. If you have “gangs” (and “gangs” will be arbitrarily defined by the torturers according to whim) in your not-really-POW-prisons, you should fuck a little boy to teach them a lesson. BTW, when did I blame Bush for any of this? > [@](#): > > What’s your next move? Oh, yes, “If you think it’s right then fuck _you_”. Calumny time! > > There is enough material in this thread alone to support a handful of PhD thesises in mob psychology and mass hysteria among the US Left. Yeah, we who object to rape and torture are just being irrational. It must be nice to go through life unencumbered by a conscience. Am I to understand that you think this crap is justified? Is Bush wrong to condemn it then? ---
**Author:** ![Gest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Gest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gest)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/286 "2004-05-06T14:49:29Z")
Pssst! Iskander! Throw 'em the red herring about how it would have been worse under the saddamites. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/287 "2004-05-06T15:14:53Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > “Prison gang” [snort] > … > > Am I to understand that you think this crap is justified? Is Bush wrong to condemn it then? Yes, a prison gang. NYT article quotes they were all friends. Don’t try to change the subject with the old lady and two people shot. These are completely unrelated incidents. One of those shot by a soldier was throwing rocks at him. Old lady incident is very poorly explained, second shooting not explained at all. Let’s stick with those 7. That’s what I think has happened. They raped somebody, who complained to US guards. NYT mentions that a ‘victim’ pointed them out (for what, it doesn’t explain). US guards took those 7 into “hard site” section for dangerous criminals and gave them hell. The emphasis on sexual humiliation explains the nature of their crime. That was primitive Justice. They were forced to masturbate and blow each other for what they have done to others. Pictures were taken to show to the other inmates, to frighten wanna-be bullies and appease the ‘victim’. US guards later complained about the lack of procedures. Can you imagine running a prison in a foreign country in the time of war? US prison riots are pretty bad, can you imagine a riot in Abu Ghraib? US guards had to do whatever necessary to keep inmates under control. If my understanding of what happened is correct, I support the actions of US guards absolutely. Bush is full of shit. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/288 "2004-05-06T15:23:20Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Bush is full of shit. finally a point we agree on. (the rest of your post, well is Bush like) ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/289 "2004-05-06T15:41:31Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > They raped somebody, who complained to US guards. NYT mentions that a ‘victim’ pointed them out (for what, it doesn’t explain). US guards took those 7 into “hard site” section for dangerous criminals and gave them hell. The emphasis on sexual humiliation explains the nature of their crime. That was primitive Justice. They were forced to masturbate and blow each other for what they have done to others. Pictures were taken to show to the other inmates, to frighten wanna-be bullies and appease the ‘victim’. Earlier in this thread I asked you “Are you nuts?” I see that the answer is “Yes.” ---
**Author:** ![Cerri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3bc359/32.png) [@Cerri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerri)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/290 "2004-05-06T15:49:53Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > They raped somebody, who complained to US guards. NYT mentions that a ‘victim’ pointed them out (for what, it doesn’t explain). US guards took those 7 into “hard site” section for dangerous criminals and gave them hell. The emphasis on sexual humiliation explains the nature of their crime. That was primitive Justice. They were forced to masturbate and blow each other for what they have done to others. Pictures were taken to show to the other inmates, to frighten wanna-be bullies and appease the ‘victim’. > > -snip- > > If my understanding of what happened is correct, I support the actions of US guards absolutely. Wow…just…wow. There aren’t words to describe the disgust I feel when I read your post. You truly are a complete piece of shit, **Iskander**. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/291 "2004-05-06T15:51:05Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > Earlier in this thread I asked you “Are you nuts?” I see that the answer is “Yes.” Clearly so. **New Iskander’s** theory is pretty badly trounced by the fact that the soldiers themselves haven’t made any mention of it in their public defense via their attorneys. How idiotic can one person get? I guess we’ll see. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_B.Phart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Capt\_B.Phart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_B.Phart)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/292 "2004-05-06T16:06:40Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > If my understanding of what happened is correct, I support the actions of US guards absolutely. This whole rough-justice argument is all very interesting - but it’s a sideshow. This isn’t about some American cop beating on an American suspect, or an Iraqi Cop wiring up an Iraqi suspect’s 'nads. These are solders (and intel guys) of an occupying force trying to maintain order in a large foreign country - they need the cooperation of the majority of the population or they lose control (the only other way to control a country is Saddam-like brutality) For example, if it turns out that a woman prisoner has been mistreated, it wouldn’t matter if she’s a baby-strangling crack-whore who knows Bin Laden personally - it will still enrage even moderate Iraqis, because she’s an _Iraqi_ being mistreated by _Americans_ > [@New Iskander](#): > > Bush is full of shit. Sheesh, you lefties never miss an opportunity to get your Bush-bashing in… ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/293 "2004-05-06T16:20:30Z")
> [@wring](#): > > (the rest of your post, well is Bush like) Give me your version, then. Only not “Evil US tortures innocent Iraq POW just for the heck of it”, please. Something really happened there, something that made real people to really blow their tops. What was it? All we know for sure that there was a jail-yard fight in which there was a victim. Take it from here. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/294 "2004-05-06T16:33:26Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Give me your version, then. Only not “Evil US tortures innocent Iraq POW just for the heck of it”, please. > > Something really happened there, something that made real people to really blow their tops. What was it? All we know for sure that there was a jail-yard fight in which there was a victim. Take it from here. fortunately I don’t have to speculate - the accused prison guards are saying (Through their reps) that they were encouraged to abuse the prisoners in order to ‘soften them up for interrogation’. speaking of speculation where the fuck did I (or anyone else) claim that ‘only evil US troops torture innocent Iraq POWs’ ? you seem to wish to focus all of your attention on one beating of one prisoner who may have been involved in something else. the rest of us are more interested in the fact that **many** prisoners were tortured, there wer3 14 deaths ruled homicides etc etc etc. and, in any event regarding the one very specific incident which seems to have caught your attention - in **any** prison on any day of the week, I guarentee there will be some prisoner somewhere who ‘gets into a jail yard fight’. It is **not** SOP **anywhere** to then allow the prison guards to beat the shit out of the prisoner, torture or kill the prisoner. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/295 "2004-05-06T16:38:32Z")
Jesus, **Iskander** , your capability for rationalization is fucking staggering. Even if I were to humor your bullshit story about a “prison gang,” it would still not justify torture and abuse, and it is flatly contradicted by the testimony of soldiers who say that these practices were used to “break” Iraqi detainees and make them answer questions. ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/296 "2004-05-06T16:45:52Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > They raped somebody, who complained to US guards. NYT mentions that a ‘victim’ pointed them out (for what, it doesn’t explain). US guards took those 7 into “hard site” section for dangerous criminals and gave them hell. The emphasis on sexual humiliation explains the nature of their crime. That was primitive Justice. They were forced to masturbate and blow each other for what they have done to others. Pictures were taken to show to the other inmates, to frighten wanna-be bullies and appease the ‘victim’. > > … > > If my understanding of what happened is correct, I support the actions of US guards absolutely. :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: Are you even fucking hearing yourself? Please tell me you don’t exercise any authority over anyone, not even a small pet newt. The concept of forced sexual activity as an acceptable punishment is… I can’t…my head is going to explode. There’s a reason it’s called PRIMITIVE JUSTICE. It’s because we are to have ADVANCED BEYOND it. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/297 "2004-05-06T16:48:44Z")
> [@wring](#): > > you seem to wish to focus all of your attention on one beating of one prisoner who may have been involved in something else. the rest of us are more interested in the fact that **many** prisoners were tortured, there wer3 14 deaths ruled homicides etc etc etc. I never commented on anything else. All the BS thrown at me was based on my comment about those particular 7 on the pictures. There are no other pictures of any other incidents. Moreover, this whole OP is based on this isolated incident. I am simply sticking to the subject. Btw, have you seen an expose ‘Libertarian’ posted in the other related thread about the person claiming old woman abuse? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/298 "2004-05-06T16:49:45Z")
> [@](#): > > - They raped somebody, who complained to US guards. NYT mentions that a ‘victim’ pointed them out (for what, it doesn’t explain). US guards took those 7 into “hard site” section for dangerous criminals and gave them hell. The emphasis on sexual humiliation explains the nature of their crime. That was primitive Justice. They were forced to masturbate and blow each other for what they have done to others. Pictures were taken to show to the other inmates, to frighten wanna-be bullies and appease the ‘victim’…. > > If my understanding of what happened is correct, I support the actions of US guards absolutely.\* I wonder. Doesn’t this constant, unrepentant repetition of support for the torture, abuse, and gross violations of the human rights of Iraqi prisoners come dangerously close to hate speech? It sure seems hateful to me. ---
**Author:** ![plnnr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@plnnr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plnnr)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/299 "2004-05-06T16:51:12Z")
**Pentagon Requests An Additional $25 Billion For Iraq Effort** -From Wire Dispatches Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld today announced that the Pentagon was preparing to request an additional $25 billion to fund the Iraq war effort. According to Rumsfeld, “I plan on pointing out to the Congress that the cost of dog leashes has risen dramatically in recent months. At [Petsmart.com](http://Petsmart.com), I can either opt for a plain nylon dog leashes for $5.99, or I can get a rolled bridle leather lead for $16.99. Well, I’m here to tell you that nothing is too good for our men and women serving overseas, and I plan on obtaining only the best dog leashes that an American dollar can buy. I’ve asked our procurment office to draw up the appropriate contracts today - they should be at Haliburton headquarters in about 24 hours.” When asked by reporters if Rumsfeld was aware that his request would purchase nearly 1.5 billion dog leashes, he responded, “Will there be some excess dog leashes purchased? Yes. Am I concerned about that? No, not really. Iran is right next door to Iraq, we may have some use for them in North Korea, and we still have the remaining Taliban elements to contend with. I’m sure our fighting men and women will find plenty of use for the surplus leashes.” ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/300 "2004-05-06T16:55:32Z")
Extreme sexual sadism is a _great_ way to maintain order! All the cool kids are doing it! ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2004, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/301 "2004-05-06T16:59:02Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > I never commented on anything else. All the BS thrown at me was based on my comment about those particular 7 on the pictures. There are no other pictures of any other incidents. Moreover, this whole OP is based on this isolated incident. I am simply sticking to the subject. > > Btw, have you seen an expose ‘Libertarian’ posted in the other related thread about the person claiming old woman abuse? then you are once again ignoring the comments of their lawyers etc. who claim that the pictures etc. represent what they were doing to ‘soften them up for interrogation’. Your speculations are absurd. In addition, the ‘torture of Iraqi prisoners’ includes quite a bit more than the ones just recently commented on in the press - did you happen to, like, actually read any of the news sources commenting on repeated requests for investigation from other authorities such as Amnesty International etc? and, of course, the absolute bottom line is: **even if your absurd claim is true** there is **no** regulation in the US law, international law, Military Code etc. that remotely suggests that in the case one prisoner attacks another that the prison guards should segregate the accused, rape, torture, beat, humiliate, kill the accused prisoner. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829.md?page=16)