# US military in torture scandal **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 30, 2004, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829 "2004-04-30T11:18:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/382 "2004-05-10T12:57:57Z")
Christ people there seems to be a lot of people here that actually believe the propaganda about their armed forces here. _Putting aside the possibility that some of these incidents seem to be part of a process rather that individual acts of torture for a moment_ Every army in the world has people who will kill, torture and rape if they get the chance. Most armies try to remove these people and I’m positive the US uses everything in its power to weed these madmen/women out but they can’t get all of them. Abuses of this nature happen all the time and not just in armies. Prison and police abuses are well documented in the west. Soldiers are no different to any other section of the population and anybody need only look at a paper or turn the TV on to see how mans inhumanity to man is a big issue. Add to that the dehumanisation of the enemy in war and the rhetoric of superiority that comes from the west when dealing with the ME and you’ve got a situation where abuse will happen no matter what checks you put in. Hopefully these people will be dealt with accordingly and any institutional abuse will be traced to the highest level. Buckle up people this ride has just started. If as reported vids and pictures come out depicting murder and rape governments or leaders (I more thinking Blair here) may fall. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/383 "2004-05-10T13:30:45Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > Christ people there seems to be a lot of people here that actually believe the propaganda about their armed forces here. > > _Putting aside the possibility that some of these incidents seem to be part of a process rather that individual acts of torture for a moment_ > > Every army in the world has people who will kill, torture and rape if they get the chance. Most armies try to remove these people and I’m positive the US uses everything in its power to weed these madmen/women out but they can’t get all of them. > > Abuses of this nature happen all the time and not just in armies. Prison and police abuses are well documented in the west. Soldiers are no different to any other section of the population and anybody need only look at a paper or turn the TV on to see how mans inhumanity to man is a big issue. > > Add to that the dehumanisation of the enemy in war and the rhetoric of superiority that comes from the west when dealing with the ME and you’ve got a situation where abuse will happen no matter what checks you put in. > > Hopefully these people will be dealt with accordingly and any institutional abuse will be traced to the highest level. > > Buckle up people this ride has just started. If as reported vids and pictures come out depicting murder and rape governments or leaders (I more thinking Blair here) may fall. Yes, all of this which makes invading Iraq and expecting to capture their hearts and minds, pure lunacy. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/384 "2004-05-10T16:16:41Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > Under which probable, (or if not probable, then possible), circumstances could the the rape of women and children, the concealment of dead body, "inappropriate"acts with dead body, etc have the ability, (if not ability then potential ability), help the perpetrating parties “hold the line,” so to speak? Taguba report only mentions “having sex”, therefere no “rape of women” in Abu Ghraib so far. Children were allegedly raped by Iraqi guards (also not in Taguba report). Abuses don’t help to hold the line in any way. However, abuses are inevitable when the order to “hold the line” is given. You gotta understand at last that Abu Ghraib was in Baghdad, not in Kansas City. It was on a front line in a foreign country. Losing Abu Ghraib to riots would be equivalent to a major military set-back. MPs there can be compared in many ways with soldiers on the front line, ordered to hold a certain position by all means necessary. If soldiers hold the position, they live, otherwise they die (rigging enemy corpses is one of the most common thing on the battlefield, btw). A lot of horrific things happen on the battlefield. No tribunal there. Should this case be treated differently? Yes, it should, for a whole lot of political and moral reasons. But consider it carefully, please. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/385 "2004-05-10T16:24:05Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > You gotta understand at last that Abu Ghraib was in Baghdad, not in Kansas City. It was on a front line in a foreign country. Losing Abu Ghraib to riots would be equivalent to a major military set-back. MPs there can be compared in many ways with soldiers on the front line, ordered to hold a certain position by all means necessary. If soldiers hold the position, they live, otherwise they die (rigging enemy corpses is one of the most common thing on the battlefield, btw). A lot of horrific things happen on the battlefield. No tribunal there. Should this case be treated differently? Yes, it should, for a whole lot of political and moral reasons. But consider it carefully, please. Where is your proof that these dicks felt they needed to control their prisoners using fear and abuse. They haven’t ever used that defense AFAIK so why are you? The only defense I’ve heard is a “we were following orders” one from one of the women. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/386 "2004-05-10T16:32:27Z")
> [@Spavined Gelding](#): > > It is starting to appear that the thing the MIs and MPs backs were against the wall about was producing evidence of weapons of mass destruction and a Saddam-BenLaden connection. This is a _good_ conjecture, in every way superior to any of my _evil_ conjectures. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/387 "2004-05-10T16:37:27Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > The only defense I’ve heard is a “we were following orders” one from one of the women. The one who goes to trial May 19 said the same thing. It is extremely shady, of course. Soldiers will insist they followed orders, while superiors will insist that they haven’t given any. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/388 "2004-05-10T16:44:10Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > You gotta understand at last that Abu Ghraib was in Baghdad, not in Kansas City. It was on a front line in a foreign country. Losing Abu Ghraib to riots would be equivalent to a major military set-back. MPs there can be compared in many ways with soldiers on the front line, ordered to hold a certain position by all means necessary. If soldiers hold the position, they live, otherwise they die (rigging enemy corpses is one of the most common thing on the battlefield, btw). A lot of horrific things happen on the battlefield. No tribunal there. Should this case be treated differently? Yes, it should, for a whole lot of political and moral reasons. But consider it carefully, please. What a load of bullshit. It’s _not_ the frontline at all, and the soldiers were hardly in a life or death situation. We needed to go above and beyond in our treatment, as the PR factor in this war should be on the front burner (capturing heart and minds, etc). All these yahoos have done is put a bigger target on American troops, and fanned the flames of hatred. I wonder if Bush boy will continue to use his “rape rooms and torture chambers” rhetoric. I had $20 that they’ll quietly phase out that particular phrase, any takers? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/389 "2004-05-10T17:40:37Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Taguba report only mentions “having sex”, therefere no “rape of women” in Abu Ghraib so far. Given the power differential betwen guard and detainee it can almost only be rape. She was under the duress of incarceration, (with a reasonable probability that the incarceration was unwarranted), and from the potential for serious maltreatment. Being under duress she was not in a position to meaningfully give consent. Sex w/o consent is rape. > [@New Iskander](#): > > Children were allegedly raped by Iraqi guards (also not in Taguba report). And also by an American contractor. But so what? What difference does the nationality of a perp make? US’s in charge of and resonsible for everyone running the prison. > [@New Iskander](#): > > Abuses don’t help to hold the line in any way. However, abuses are inevitable when the order to “hold the line” is given. > Losing Abu Ghraib to riots would be equivalent to a major military set-back. MPs there can be compared in many ways with soldiers on the front line, ordered to hold a certain position by all means necessary. If soldiers hold the position, they live, otherwise they die (rigging enemy corpses is one of the most common thing on the battlefield, btw). A lot of horrific things happen on the battlefield. No tribunal there. Should this case be treated differently? Yes, it should, for a whole lot of political and moral reasons. But consider it carefully, please. Multiple, intentional, violations of Geneva Conventions and subsequent attempts to cover-up such violations, and multiply felonious SOPs are all "inevitable? Can I have some sort of a citation for at least the multiply felonious SOPs being inevitable? [channelling Mr. Limbaugh} **NI** , what it all _really_ comes down to is you being a liberal. You have a liberal’s loathing to acknowledge personal responsibility. Every criminal has some “I was victimized by my enviroment” story to tell. At some point even liberals like you have to recognize that personal responsibility for one’s actions is not only desirable, but real and inevitable. [/channelling] 😉 ps Thanks for clearing up the very last of my confusion about Abu Ghraib being “in Baghdad, not in Kansas City.” Rest assured that I “understand at last.” And the next time you’ve the urge to point out something similar, (like “water’s wet”), stick the urge up your elitist self and keep it there, ya liberal putz. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/390 "2004-05-10T19:05:24Z")
‘SimonX’ is a Dittohead. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/391 "2004-05-10T19:58:04Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > ‘SimonX’ is a Dittohead. Better then being a doodoohead. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/392 "2004-05-10T21:13:49Z")
> [@Libertarian](#): > > Despite that you have never responded to my repeated questions about _Almost Famous_, I’ve always held you in high regard. But I believe you’re missing the boat here. I don’t think you can rightfully say what you would do upon facing a “horrible, painful death” unless you had done so. And you especially cannot use that extremely iffy and safe declaration to condemn the morality of someone else. only in the respect that none of us have the absolute ability to predict the future. I believe that _generally speaking_ most of us can, in fact, make the declarative statement "I don’t think I’d **ever** do _that_ " and it should be accepted. for example: I don’t believe that I’d \*\*ever \*\*- Parachute out of an airplane Rape a child. intentionally and knowingly burn a human being to death Steal billions of dollars from my employer (who doesn’t have billions but that’s beside the point). Torture a prisoner overwhom I’ve been giving custody. We may disagree on levels of stuff, and certainly you could paint some bizarre set of circumstances (‘you have an infant child being held captive by Charles Manson who promises to cause the death in as horrid a way possible if you don’t blah blah blah’), but the basis of the assertion (ie, I feel that I would not be able to do this) still remains. There is some implication that the guards were acting under orders, and/or they may have been dealing with strong imagery of comrades in danger and all, but you have to admit - **some** guards not only didn’t participate, but turned over evidence, made complaints about the abuse going on. I don’t think it’s necessary to demand that **only** the other guards there can possibly have an accurate idea of what they may or may not do. Empathy is possible. It’s not necessary for me to experience every possible scenario to have a valid idea of what I might do under a variety of circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/393 "2004-05-10T22:06:22Z")
> [@wring](#): > > only in the respect that none of us have the absolute ability to predict the future. I believe that _generally speaking_ most of us can, in fact, make the declarative statement "I don’t think I’d **ever** do _that_ " and it should be accepted. > > for example: > > I don’t believe that I’d \*\*ever \*\*- > Parachute out of an airplane > Rape a child. > intentionally and knowingly burn a human being to death > Steal billions of dollars from my employer (who doesn’t have billions but that’s beside the point). > Torture a prisoner overwhom I’ve been giving custody. > > We may disagree on levels of stuff, and certainly you could paint some bizarre set of circumstances (‘you have an infant child being held captive by Charles Manson who promises to cause the death in as horrid a way possible if you don’t blah blah blah’), but the basis of the assertion (ie, I feel that I would not be able to do this) still remains. Your assertion is “_you feel_ as if you will not ever be able [or willing] to do certain things”? Or is it it flat out, “I would never, ever do these things under any circumstances.” I certainly wouldn’t challenge the former, but I think the latter is largely nonsense. Are you dismissing “bizarre” circumstances or accepting them? Your tell me, is war “bizarre”? We are subjecting hundreds of thousands of young men and women to it. Would it be bizarre if some friends of your got blown up in an RPG attack? It certainly would in Madison, Wisconsin. It seems to me bizarre that it’s NOT bizarre in Bagdad. Bizarre is simply not that unusual any more. [Repeated studies =, beginning in 1971](http://www.iht.com/articles/518733.html) have shown that average people will abuse prisoners if given vague instructions like “keep order” and given control over others. Put that together with a war zone, and you have a recipe all yesty and swelling up for abuse. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/394 "2004-05-10T22:26:23Z")
> [@Boyo Jim](#): > > Your assertion is “_you feel_ as if you will not ever be able [or willing] to do certain things”? Or is it it flat out, “I would never, ever do these things under any circumstances.” I certainly wouldn’t challenge the former, but I think the latter is largely nonsense. Are you dismissing “bizarre” circumstances or accepting them? Your tell me, is war “bizarre”? We are subjecting hundreds of thousands of young men and women to it. Would it be bizarre if some friends of your got blown up in an RPG attack? It certainly would in Madison, Wisconsin. It seems to me bizarre that it’s NOT bizarre in Bagdad. Bizarre is simply not that unusual any more. > > [Repeated studies =, beginning in 1971](http://www.iht.com/articles/518733.html) have shown that average people will abuse prisoners if given vague instructions like “keep order” and given control over others. Put that together with a war zone, and you have a recipe all yesty and swelling up for abuse. I don’t believe there could conceivably be a set of circumstances (ie, I don’t believe that realistically a set of circumstances would occur - don’t think that aliens will come down with mind ray zappers etc etc.) Does that help? Your assertions wrt: the other soldiers etc belie Bush et al’s assertions that it was ‘a few bad apples’ etc. Point of fact I’ve not seen any evidence that such activity is the norm for soldiers there, have you? **some** people may abuse, others don’t. So why do you believe that you can tell some one else which group they’d be in, or that they’d be wrong when they believe they’d be in the non abusing one? There are some stipulations I would agree that “no, you probably don’t know what you’d be capable of” but they generally involve psychosis or some other level of mental disorder (so, for example, I’d believe that while **generally** I don’t think I’d be capable of performing actions that forseeably would result in the death of my child, I also accept that had I had post partum psychosis, or should I start having hallucinations, I’d be capable of actions that would result in harm to him). War itself yes, is an unusual set of circumstances, but I’m not gonna tell some one else they’d absolutely not be able to predict what they’d do under certain specific circumstances. If I go to Carabas, I’m likely to order the Chicken Bryan. I’m quite certain that I wouldn’t order the Calamari. I’m quite capable of predicting my future behavior in any number of circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/395 "2004-05-11T05:33:35Z")
I want very much to believe that I am incapable of torturing another human being. But I have lived too long and seen too much to say that I know for sure. I am a member of the human race and we are capable of acts of depravity and acts of nobility. Sometimes it is very hard to predict who will be the Joe Darbys and Hugh Thompsons of this world and who will “follow orders.” According to Alexander G. Higgins of the Associated Press, the Red Cross Report says the following about the arrest of prisoners in Iraqi: > [@](#): > > “Sometimes they arrested all adult males present in a house, including elderly, handicapped or sick people,” it says. “Treatment often included pushing people around, insulting, taking aim with rifles, punching and kicking and striking with rifles.” The same report implies that these actions were wide-spread. We were supposed to be their _liberators_. * * * In memory of The White Rose: [http://www.angelfire.com/vt/alexigloo/whiterose.html](http://www.angelfire.com/vt/alexigloo/whiterose.html) ---
**Author:** ![High\_Cheese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8797f3/32.png) [@High\_Cheese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/High_Cheese)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/396 "2004-05-11T06:26:58Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > It couldn’t be worse if we had tried. To add a little extra salt in the wounds, naked prisoners abused by _female_ American soldiers. To a _machismo_ infested society like one finds in the ME, this is a brilliant touch, almost genius, if it were in fact designed to inflame our enemies. > > The armed forces of the United States are very likely the best trained and most humane fighting force on the planet, or surely in the top five. I believe this. **But noone is immune to the brutalizing effects of war, it is the best process known for converting decent human beings into monsters.** Lets keep that in mind the next time they start pounding the drums, waving the flag, and talking about “glory”. > > Go to war if you have absolutely _no_ other choice. Any lesser standard is an abomination. Which facet of post traumatic stress and the brutality of war induces soldiers to point at a prisoners nakedness, smile, and flash a hearty “thumbs-up?” Which ever it is, PFC England must have suffered brutally by it. I guess war _is_ hell. P.S. Anyone else want to give here a decent slug in the face? Bold was done by me. ---
**Author:** ![High\_Cheese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8797f3/32.png) [@High\_Cheese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/High_Cheese)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/397 "2004-05-11T06:44:40Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > No prizes for guessing the most prominent news story over at [Al Jazeera](http://www.aljazeera.net/). > > What a fucking cockup. What a surprise actually: it wasn’t nearly as \*Weekly World News \* as I thought it might be. It’s still heavily slanted propaganda, but moderately tolerable. ---
**Author:** ![High\_Cheese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8797f3/32.png) [@High\_Cheese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/High_Cheese)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/398 "2004-05-11T07:28:32Z")
> [@bnorton](#): > > While it’s true that **New Iskander** represents the lowest of human life forms, it’s important to remember that there are many more just like him. They are everywhere. They walk among us. There is no sign of the devil stamped on their forehead. From the outside they are indistinguishable from the rest of us. Some of us may even be New Iskanders without even knowing it. All we need is to be placed in a position of power over people we feel morally superior to. > > The people in charge of the Iraqi prisons should know all that, and they should be held to the higest accountability for their lack of oversight. > > I just wonder where this will all end. Yes, Yes! John Carpenter’s _They Live_. We need sunglasses. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/399 "2004-05-11T11:44:34Z")
Well I can’t speak for you guys, but I _know_ I wouldn’t be torturing anyone. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/400 "2004-05-11T13:31:41Z")
Originally posted by **World Eater** > [@](#): > > _Well I can’t speak for you guys, but I know I wouldn’t be torturing anyone_ [Are you sure?](http://www.rutherford.org/articles/oldspeak-evil.asp) “As Milgram’s experiments reveal, people have a capacity to distance themselves from the sufferings of others, as well as a darker capacity to justify such cruelty or even delight in it, so long as it is sanction by some legitimate authority, not a direct result of our actions, or seems to serve a higher purpose.” ---
**Author:** ![Starguard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Starguard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starguard)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/401 "2004-05-11T13:33:51Z")
Take a look at [this website](http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheBigPicture2003/) and tell me what you can make of it - Please note that the contents of the above cite \*\* DO NOT\*\* reflect my personal views or opinoins in any way, shape , form, or fashion. This is just a brain teaser to see how it affects **your** views [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829.md?page=21)