# US military in torture scandal **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 30, 2004, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829 "2004-04-30T11:18:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/81 "2004-04-30T22:02:58Z")
This allged torture by the contractors might have triggered the mutilated four incident in Fallujah. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/82 "2004-04-30T23:24:22Z")
> [@capacitor](#): > > This allged torture by the contractors might have triggered the mutilated four incident in Fallujah. that would assume that the Iraqis would have had some way of knowing what was going on in there. With the language barrier and security issues, I have doubts that there would have been any way for that info to have gotten out to the Iraqi people. FIrst thing I recalled when hearing this story was the Outrage that the Americans expressed when tape of our prisoners was shown “prisoners of war should not be photographed like that” etc. then of course, we showed pictures of Saddam’s dead sons (oh, but it was necessary to prove that they were dead), video tape of Saddams’ capture etc (necessary to prove he was captured and treated humanely if disrespectively). now this. The moral high ground isn’t ours. and the sorry excuse of “I didn’t receive adequate training” (in order to know not to torture and make sport of prisoners) is exceedingly lame. I like **Dorkness’** list, but also doubt that it will be implimented. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_B.Phart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Capt\_B.Phart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_B.Phart)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/83 "2004-04-30T23:28:04Z")
> [@Johnny G](#): > > The British photos are even more proof! Blair is in on the deal to expand America because it means the UK will get the lionshare of the trading profits! I’ll never doubt my instincts again! There’s just one tiny flaw in your theory that this is all part of a plot to colonise Iraq - the fact that these incidents will make it all but impossible for the US to maintain any control, or even maintain any presence, in Iraq - uniting the whole country in hatred for the occupation isn’t Evil Genius - it’s just plain stupid ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_Serpentine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3be4f8/32.png) [@Silver\_Serpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_Serpentine)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/84 "2004-04-30T23:31:50Z")
(Sorry, but I didn’t read the entire thread. I’m fighting a reboot monster on my computer, and I wanted to post before I got booted again). [hijack, kind of related] I have part of an article about an investigation that happened a few years ago. In this investigation, 150 honorable discharged and decorated veterans told stories about what had happened in Asia. “These were not isolated incidents, but crimes commited on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command. … They told stories that they had at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable phones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam. … They relived the absolute horror of whatthis country, in a sense, had made them do.” So, this certainly isn’t a new development for the US military. It’s just that none of these guys took pictures. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![drewbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drewbert/32/15890_2.png) [@drewbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewbert)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/85 "2004-04-30T23:33:34Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > What do y’all think of these five suggestions? 1. A promise from the President that Heads. Will. Roll. (it won’t happen, of course) ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_B.Phart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Capt\_B.Phart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_B.Phart)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/86 "2004-04-30T23:40:54Z")
> [@wring](#): > > that would assume that the Iraqis would have had some way of knowing what was going on in there. With the language barrier and security issues, I have doubts that there would have been any way for that info to have gotten out to the Iraqi people. > [@](#): > > \ ***An Iraqi blogger** \* > We’ve been hearing terrible stories about Abu Ghraib Prison in Baghdad for a while now, but those pictures somehow spoke like no words could. [From a link **Squink** posted in GD](http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/2004_04_01_riverbendblog_archive.html#108335179421604212) ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/87 "2004-04-30T23:45:38Z")
The British have been shaking their heads for months at how utterly unprepared we have been for this task, how sloppy we are, how poorly trained. People begged for just a few weeks more time to draw up a plan for the occupation. People made plans that were ignored. Generals requested more and better troops. Planners raised hel about not having properly trained personnel or equipment. All of this was ignored, and as far as I can tell, mostly out of both hubris and utter disdain for both the military and experts who hadn’t pledged eternal loyalty to the administration. This is but a tiny example of what can go wrong when you don’t know what the hell you are doing. Priority number 1 in prisons should have been that America never get subjected to this sort of propaganda boon for our enemies, never allow any situation with our personnel to run around without supervision, proper training, and oversight. People knew what was at stake, or should have. On a side note: anyone think that one of the torturers looks sort of like that glasses wearing balding guy from MTV with slicked hair that used to smoke and drive a taxicab? ---
**Author:** ![Balduran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cc9497/32.png) [@Balduran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balduran)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/88 "2004-04-30T23:56:03Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The armed forces of the United States are very likely the best trained and most humane fighting force on the planet, or surely in the top five. I believe this. But noone is immune to the brutalizing effects of war, it is the best process known for converting decent human beings into monsters. Lets keep that in mind the next time they start pounding the drums, waving the flag, and talking about “glory”. Great post. I agree on all counts. The Americans and British are nowhere near the level of indiscriminate bombing the Russians were doing in Grozny. I also believe the incidents of torture are probably on the low level that occur in wars. But the coalition is really under a microscope here, they must be seen to quickly unleash the wrath of god on all responsible, up and down the chain of command, to save credibility in Iraq. Unfortunately these things usually take a long time, there are lots of places in the chain of command for it to get bottlenecked as everybody is trying to save their own asses. It was pretty pathetic during our Somalia inquiry how the kept trying to blame it all on the anti-malarial drug Methloquine. It does have some psychoactive properties, but it certainly doesn’t turn people into killers. The pass the buck strategy certainly isn’t unique to the American military. Another scandal in the Canadian military occured in Bosnia. Some soldiers were responsible for protecting a mental institute. There were pictures of the big heroes on our front pages. It later sufaced that some of them were having sex with the staff (possibly coerced) and abusing the patients. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/89 "2004-05-01T00:22:50Z")
> [@Johnny G](#): > > And people here laughed at me. Who’s laughing now? Even amid the shock and horror of these utterly appalling developments, **Johnny G** , rest assured that you are still a source of comedy. Indeed, in this thread, you are the _only_ source of comedy. Please, sir, bear your burden with honor. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/90 "2004-05-01T03:34:11Z")
Oops: so much me lending any creedence to British scoffing: photos have surfaced of the same sorts of things among British troops. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/91 "2004-05-01T04:59:43Z")
I bet that if you search long enough, you’ll find photos of soldiers of _every damn country_, humiliating prisoners. Maybe it has to do with the tension they live in. Most soldiers can handle it, others go berserk and show off in front of their fellow soldiers. I don’t condone it. It makes me ill, but I imagine it happens more than we believe. Sadly, the photos will make their way to the Iraqi papers. It’s a shame that some lunatics will have such an impact on the already far from friendly feelings of the people of Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/92 "2004-05-01T05:03:40Z")
It is only the overwhelming shame of an entire nation that can redeem us from this point on. We, the evil empire, must withdraw at once, and let street thugs, and active criminals take over Iraq, since it is now obvious that they are our moral superiors. By just what mental gymnastics is George Bush not obviously guilty of crimes against humanity? I am deeply ashamed of my country. End this war, now! Tris ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/93 "2004-05-01T05:45:33Z")
I find it quite remarkable that nobody here have wondered, who might be those people under hoods with their extremities wired? What if it was Saddam under hood? Doesn’t Saddam deserve exactly such treatment in eternity? What if it was one of Saddam henchmen, getting an idea what his victims were going through? They have done such things to so many innocent people! Don’t Saddam henchmen deserve to be hooded and their genitals wired with alligator clamps? Wouldn’t that be the real Justice? ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/94 "2004-05-01T06:27:49Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > I find it quite remarkable that nobody here have wondered, who might be those people under hoods with their extremities wired? They’re human beings. Their identity is irrelevant. > [@](#): > > What if it was Saddam under hood? Doesn’t Saddam deserve exactly such treatment in eternity? No. First of all, I’m not G-d, so I have no control over eternity. Second of all, you don’t condemn him out of one side of your mouth and then perpetrate the same crimes he did out of the other. That makes you a hypocrite _and_ an asshole. > [@](#): > > What if it was one of Saddam henchmen, getting an idea what his victims were going through? They have done such things to so many innocent people! See above. Not to mention that there are laws against this sort of treatment of prisoners of war. > [@](#): > > Don’t Saddam henchmen deserve to be hooded and their genitals wired with alligator clamps? > > Wouldn’t that be the real Justice? No, that would be barbaric. What kind of monster are you that you would advocate that kind of cruelty? ---
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/95 "2004-05-01T06:38:34Z")
> [@](#): > > We, the evil empire, must withdraw at once, and let street thugs, and active criminals take over Iraq, since it is now obvious that they are our moral superiors. This is the most beautiful scarecrow I’ve ever seen. Mind if I put it by my grain? I’ve been having a crow problem lately. It is possible for _everyone_ in this situation to be morally bankrupt, **Tris**. Personally, I don’t care who runs Iraq, as long as they are democratically elected, and yes that includes street thugs. Us Canadians elected a thief, and we love him. Back to Iraq, why don’t we beat some swords into ballot boxes, then we’re off the hook. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/96 "2004-05-01T07:21:16Z")
> [@Desmostylus](#): > > Some of the milder photographs can be found here, at [Mirror.co.uk](http://Mirror.co.uk): > > [http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/tm\_objectid=14195963&method=full&siteid=50143&headline=outrage-at-american-torture-of-iraqi-prisoners-name\_page.html](http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/tm_objectid=14195963&method=full&siteid=50143&headline=outrage-at-american-torture-of-iraqi-prisoners-name_page.html) Oh my god. I don’t know why, but the first picture in that link is probably one of the most revolting things I’ve ever seen. My stomach is just rolling…I think it might give me nightmares. I don’t know why _that_ picture out of all of them affected me so much, but the bile is rising in my throat. I’m not shocked, but I’m so disappointed and angry that I have tears in my eyes. Every military in every country might have as bad or worse pictures as somebody else in the thread pointed out, but by god, that’s no excuse…my god, what is wrong with us? ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/97 "2004-05-01T07:38:43Z")
> [@gum](#): > > I bet that if you search long enough, you’ll find photos of soldiers of _every damn country_, humiliating prisoners. Maybe it has to do with the tension they live in. Most soldiers can handle it, others go berserk and show off in front of their fellow soldiers. I’m sure you can. But then, these people don’t look to be under much tension. They look like kids with their own personal fantasyland of amusements. And frankly, there is bound to be something of a culture of superiority and triumphalism here, and certianly the way we do interrogations of these sorts of people is basically: “let’s fuck around with these people as much as possible without actually leaving any marks on them.” It’s a culture in which you must feel like you can just fuck around with the prisoners for jollies, try out new things, etc. Time and time again experiments have shown that even normal people become cruel when set to watch over prisoners: which is precisely why safeguards, observation, record keeping, and so on needs to exist to prevent abuse. But they apparently didn’t exist here. Whether some of these prisoners are the scum of the earth is beside the point. The soldiers and mercs involved had no way to know if the charges against these people were true, or even if they were just cases of mistaken identity or petty crimes. And even if they weren’t, even if you are all for giving to them what’s coming to them: stop and think about the acts of defilement and humiliation that are insulting to Muslims in general, no matter who they are or how much they deserve other sorts of punishment that don’t simultaneously demean all humanity. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/98 "2004-05-01T08:12:38Z")
I read that most of the prisoners were there for shooting at U.S. forces, which would make them simply POWs. ---
**Author:** ![Cerri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3bc359/32.png) [@Cerri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerri)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/99 "2004-05-01T09:53:25Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > I read that most of the prisoners were there for shooting at U.S. forces, which would make them simply POWs. If you have a cite for that, I’d be interested in reading it. According to an interview with Seymour Hersh, an investigative reporter for the New Yorker magazine, in a Today interview with Katie Couric, a large number of the people in that prison are just civilian detainees. Which of course, doesn’t necessarily mean they were NOT enemy combatants, but what I’ve read and yours doesn’t match up, and my dad always used to tell me that between two “sides” of the truth, the real truth usually lay somewhere in the middle. It was in interesting interview…click on the video link on [this page](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4871554/) to view it yourself. The interview also features the lawyer and uncle of one of the six soldiers accused. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/100 "2004-05-01T10:43:07Z")
> [@Cerri](#): > > If you have a cite for that, I’d be interested in reading it. The NYT did a story about the prisoners back in March. > [@](#): > > [As U.S. Detains 10,000 Iraqis, Families Plead for News > By JEFFREY GETTLEMAN > March 7, 2004](http://www.peaceuk.co.uk/archive/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=977) > > Iraq has a new generation of missing men. But instead of ending up in mass graves or at the bottom of the Tigris River, as they often did during the rule of Saddam Hussein, they are detained somewhere in American jails. > > Although the insurgency has cooled, with suicide attacks against civilians now eclipsing armed clashes with American troops, American forces are still conducting daily raids, bursting into homes and sweeping up families. More than 10,000 men and boys are in custody. According to a detainee database maintained by the military, the oldest prisoner is 75, the youngest 11. > > Military officials say some of the detainees have been accused of serious offenses, including shooting down helicopters and planting roadside bombs. > > But the officials acknowledge that most of the people captured are probably not dangerous. Of a recent batch of cases reviewed by military judges, they recommended that 963 of 1,166 detainees be released. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829.md?page=6)