# US military in torture scandal **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 30, 2004, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829 "2004-04-30T11:18:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/101 "2004-05-01T10:47:31Z")
**elucidator** : > [@](#): > > \*But no one is immune to the brutalizing effects of war, it is the best process known for converting decent human beings into monsters. Lets keep that in mind the next time they start pounding the drums, waving the flag, and talking about “glory”. > > Go to war if you have absolutely **no** other choice. Any lesser standard is an abomination.\* Amen. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/102 "2004-05-01T11:32:07Z")
**New Iskander** : > [@](#): > > - I find it quite remarkable that nobody here have wondered, who might be those people under hoods with their extremities wired? > > What if it was Saddam under hood? Doesn’t Saddam deserve exactly such treatment in eternity? > > What if it was one of Saddam henchmen, getting an idea what his victims were going through? They have done such things to so many innocent people! > > Don’t Saddam henchmen deserve to be hooded and their genitals wired with alligator clamps? > > Wouldn’t that be the real Justice?\* Why am I not surprised to read such loathsome sentiments come slithering out of your ugly pie-hole? I’ve met slugs with more a profound moral sense than yours. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/103 "2004-05-01T11:45:16Z")
Apropo and in a similar vein, to anyone interested, I would reccommend reading the recent Pulitzer Prize winning investigative series by The Toledo Blade about American atrocities in the Vietnam War entitled [_Buried Secrets, Brutal Truths_](http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=SRTIGERFORCE) ]. Although this Iraqi case is not exactly a My Lai, I would still characterize it as an atrocity and endemic to our armed forces, past and present. And History repeats and history haunts, and history repeats… ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/104 "2004-05-01T12:14:39Z")
One thing that confused me was a quote in [this](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3675479.stm) BBC article today, from a Washington Post guy on why he thinks the coverage of the allegations is muted in the States: > [@](#): > > Mr Kurtz said that one possible explanation as to why the story was not receiving greater coverage in the US was that Democrats, the party in opposition, were not making the allegations an issue. > > “We, in the media, are a little hesitant to start the debate ourselves, but if some member of the Democratic Party were to start a debate over this, we would be on it in a flash,” Mr Kurtz said. Being in the UK, I don’t really know if this could be true - is it really the case that the US media will only really run with something once it’s become a partisan pissing contest? Is something only news once it’s political? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/105 "2004-05-01T12:27:07Z")
> [@](#): > > “We, in the media, are a little hesitant to start the debate ourselves, but if some member of the Democratic Party were to start a debate over this, we would be on it in a flash,” Mr Kurtz said. “Yeah, we in the media will never break a story until the oppostion party decides they want to make it an issue, and then we’re all over that puppy.” Utter hogwash. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/106 "2004-05-01T14:26:45Z")
> [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > I don’t know why, but the first picture in that link is probably one of the most revolting things I’ve ever seen. My stomach is just rolling…I think it might give me nightmares. I don’t know why _that_ picture out of all of them affected me so much, but the bile is rising in my throat. It _is_ a particularly striking image. At a guess, it strikes a chord because it has a robed figure with open arms and bare feet, which is similar to many depictions of Christ in paintings and statues that you’ve seen. The wires show torture, which compounds the effect. Add in a black Klan hood, and there you have a really disturbing portrait. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/107 "2004-05-01T15:04:28Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The armed forces of the United States are very likely the best trained and most humane fighting force on the planet, or surely in the top five. I believe this. But noone is immune to the brutalizing effects of war, it is the best process known for converting decent human beings into monsters. Lets keep that in mind the next time they start pounding the drums, waving the flag, and talking about “glory”. Just go through the photos one more time, take a fresh look. They are simply prankish photos of young criminals frolicking in jail. They are nowhere close to Rodney King beating tape, nowhere close to Grannies in handcuffs, nowhere close to a squad of police officers dispatching a retarded person for being slow in following orders in a barrage of fire… nowhere close to many things that happen in our own country and in our own prisons. Wanna say something about “brutalizing effects of” Peace? And I really wish it was Saddam in a picture with his extremities wired. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_B.Phart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Capt\_B.Phart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_B.Phart)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/108 "2004-05-01T15:26:40Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > They are simply prankish photos of young criminals frolicking in jail. They are nowhere close to Rodney King beating tape… [From here](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2004/04/30/international0956EDT0523.DTL) > [@](#): > > A U.S. Army report obtained by The New Yorker magazine said Iraqi detainees were subjected to “sadistic, blatant and wanton criminal abuses” at the Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad. > > Those abuses included pouring phosphoric liquid from chemical lights on detainees, pouring cold water on naked detainees and threats of rape, said the internal report by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba. > > Detainees were beaten with a broom handle and one was sodomized with “a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick,” the report said, according to the magazine. > > The report was based on “detailed witness statements and the discovery of extremely graphic photographic evidence,” The New Yorker said in its May 10 issue. [From here](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3675215.stm) > [@](#): > > They allege during his eight-hour ordeal he was threatened with execution, his jaw broken and his teeth smashed… > > After being beaten and urinated on, he was driven away and dumped from the back of a moving vehicle, the soldiers claimed, unaware if he was dead. Can we stop pretending now? This really isn’t going well ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/109 "2004-05-01T16:25:39Z")
> [@Capt B. Phart](#): > > Can we stop pretending now? This really isn’t going well No, it’s not going well at all. Your first cite doesn’t contain a quote that you followed with. Did you make this quote up? Your second cite describes an isolated incident, concerning a single man. He might have been mistreated. He might also richly deserved everything that was given to him. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/110 "2004-05-01T16:30:58Z")
> [@Mr. Svinlesha](#): > > Why am I not surprised to read such loathsome sentiments come slithering out of your ugly pie-hole? > > I’ve met slugs with more a profound moral sense than yours. So, wishing torture on torturers and wishing murder on murderers makes my mouth an “ugly pie-hole” and negates my moral sense? Good to be reminded which side mild-mannered, mealy-mouthed intellectuals like you stand on: the side of mass-murderers, as usual. Sometimes I forget that. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/111 "2004-05-01T16:42:30Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > So, wishing torture on torturers and wishing murder on murderers makes my mouth an “ugly pie-hole” and negates my moral sense? Why yes, yes it does. Finally, something intelligent coming out of your ugly pie-hole. > [@](#): > > Good to be reminded which side mild-mannered, mealy-mouthed intellectuals like you stand on: the side of mass-murderers, as usual. Sometimes I forget that. No, you sadistic fuck, it means we’re on the side of HUMANITY. WE don’t stoop to the levels of twisted, sadistic bastards like them (and you), because as soon as we do, it makes US no better than them. What a goddamn idiot you are. ---
**Author:** ![elfbabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b782af/32.png) [@elfbabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfbabe)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/112 "2004-05-01T16:44:00Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Good to be reminded which side mild-mannered, mealy-mouthed intellectuals like you stand on: the side of mass-murderers, as usual. Sometimes I forget that. Gosh, they’re ALL mass murderers? I wish we could get this kind of pinpoint accuracy in domestic affairs. Just imagine! No more doubts! No more trials! No more lawyers! No more innocents being wrongfully imprisoned or guilty being released! Give it enough time, and America would become a perfect utopia, free of crime and hate! Why didn’t anyone think of this before? ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_B.Phart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Capt\_B.Phart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_B.Phart)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/113 "2004-05-01T16:57:42Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > No, it’s not going well at all. > > Your first cite doesn’t contain a quote that you followed with. Did you make this quote up? > > Your second cite describes an isolated incident, concerning a single man. He might have been mistreated. He might also richly deserved everything that was given to him. [Correct link](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2004/05/01/international0425EDT0440.DTL) (why do you think I would make this shit up? ) Isolated incident? Your bloodthirsty reaction alone suggests otherwise, plus other allegations are being investigated against these same “rogue elements” and others Frankly it doesn’t matter - even the most moderate Iraqi now feels the same way you would if this had been Arab troops in the US doing these things to Americans. Gonna tell me you’d shrug that off? > [@](#): > > He might also richly deserved everything that was given to him. An alleged thief gets pissed on, his jaw broken, teeth shattered, left for dead. - Is that how you’d like law-enforcement done in your town? (I suspect you probably would) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/114 "2004-05-01T18:02:24Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > So, wishing torture on torturers and wishing murder on murderers makes my mouth an “ugly pie-hole” and negates my moral sense? > > Good to be reminded which side mild-mannered, mealy-mouthed intellectuals like you stand on: the side of mass-murderers, as usual. Sometimes I forget that. Wow. I didn’t realize this level of contempt existed. I need to take a shower. Read some Dickinson, maybe. Kind of re-align, recalibrate. My inherent trust in mankind moves me to suggest you reconsider, **New Ish** , and apologize. You’re entirely out of line with that, even for the pit. No body not on medication truly believes that **Big Svin** , or anyone else here, for that matter, stands on the side of mass-murderers. You are wrong. Dreadfully wrong. Stop it. ---
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/115 "2004-05-01T18:03:22Z")
[We’re not just pulling this out of our ass, you know](http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm). > [@](#): > > (\* from Article 13\*) "prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity. > > Measures of reprisal against prisoners of war are prohibited." > > (_from Article 14_)“Prisoners of war are entitled in all circumstances to respect for their persons and their honour.” > > (_from Article 17_) "No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted, or exposed to any unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind. " ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/116 "2004-05-01T18:04:37Z")
**New Iskander** : > [@](#): > > - So, wishing torture on torturers and wishing murder on murderers makes my mouth an “ugly pie-hole” and negates my moral sense?\* Yes, you shit-for-brains useless excuse for human excrement. Perhaps you’ve forgotten that the US supposedly invaded Iraq to put an end to Saddam’s human rights violations, not commit more of them. And as for “torturers and murderers,” you have yourself no clue who those poor people were. Not that it matters to you, apparently. [QUOTE] - Good to be reminded which side mild-mannered, mealy-mouthed intellectuals like you stand on: the side of mass-murderers, as usual. Sometimes I forget that.\* [QUOTE] Right. You condone this sort of conduct, and then accuse _me_ of standing on the side of “mass murderers.” Truly, you are a contemptible little turdwad. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/117 "2004-05-01T18:10:43Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > No, you sadistic fuck, it means we’re on the side of HUMANITY. WE don’t stoop to the levels of twisted, sadistic bastards like them (and you), because as soon as we do, it makes US no better than them. Allow me to congratulate you on discovering a ‘slippery slope’ principle. That is a major intellectual accomplishment, indeed. However, I must inform you that some other people have discovered it long time ago already. I am not saying what we should do, the proper authorities seem to be taking care of that just fine. I am only saying what I wish to see done to Saddam and his henchmen, in return for everything they have done to many innocent people. In short, I am venting. And I find it very disturbing that my venting is what considered a real crime here. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/118 "2004-05-01T18:19:19Z")
> [@Capt B. Phart](#): > > Isolated incident? Your bloodthirsty reaction alone suggests otherwise… What is my idle desire to see **Saddam’s** extremities wired in return for all the crimes he committed has to do with one allegedly innocent person being abused in Iraq by British troops? Considering the proper link: “threats of rape, beating and sodomizing prisoners with a broom handle”, and Bush is saying, that is “not the way we do things in America”? Didn’t we see similar things inside US many times? And that still leaves open the possibility that some of mistreated deserved a whole lot worse. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/119 "2004-05-01T18:25:16Z")
Shocking, yes, but just another log on the firein the long run, considering that there was never any coherent rationale for invading Iraq in the first place. I’m with some others here in that my first reaction to the revelation of torture and brutalization of prisoners in Iraq was “Is anyone really surprised by this?” That, of course, does nothing to negate just how utterly disgusting was the behavior of the personnel involved. The only acceptable outcome, I believe, is public identification of the perpetrators, vigorous prosecution for war crimes, and profuse apologies from military and administration officials at the highest level. Given that the administration, and the President himself, seems to follow a dictum I’ve seen attributed to Nixon, “Never apologize, never explain”, I won’t hold my breath waiting for such an outcome. Oh, and **New Iskander** , perhaps you are unaware of this, but you are presenting yourself as a bit of an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/120 "2004-05-01T18:30:06Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You are wrong. Dreadfully wrong. Stop it. This coming from a staunch advocate of an ‘eye-for-an-eye’ principle of Justice. Didn’t you express a wish for Powell to go the UN and recite his WMD presentation bewailing his own alleged cluelessness? Didn’t you express a wish for Kissinger to be given out to the Kurds for all the wrongs he has allegedly done to them? How is that different from my wish to see **Saddam and his henchmen** to go through the same Hell that their victims went through? Is it my fault that **Mr. S.** reacting so strangely to my simple wish? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829.md?page=7)