# US military in torture scandal **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 30, 2004, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829 "2004-04-30T11:18:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/121 "2004-05-01T18:36:22Z")
> [@Mr. Svinlesha](#): > > And as for “torturers and murderers,” you have yourself no clue who those poor people were. Not that it matters to you, apparently. What matters to me is that nobody even raised the possibility that those two incidents could be at all justified. For we have only two incidents documented: somebody with wires attached to fingers and somebody savagely beaten. What if it was Saddam with wires attached? What if it was his main henchman savagely beaten? Why nobody raised that possibility but jumped to heap abuse on US? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/122 "2004-05-01T18:41:19Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > The only acceptable outcome, I believe, is public identification of the perpetrators, vigorous prosecution for war crimes, and profuse apologies from military and administration officials at the highest level. Given that the administration, and the President himself, seems to follow a dictum I’ve seen attributed to Nixon, “Never apologize, never explain”, I won’t hold my breath waiting for such an outcome. Are you concluded? Good! Now go read the morning papers, you might find some of your wishes have come true already. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/123 "2004-05-01T18:43:14Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > What matters to me is that nobody even raised the possibility that those two incidents could be at all justified. For we have only two incidents documented: somebody with wires attached to fingers and somebody savagely beaten. What if it was Saddam with wires attached? What if it was his main henchman savagely beaten? Why nobody raised that possibility but jumped to heap abuse on US? We should be dealing justice, not revenge. Regardless of who the prisoner is. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_B.Phart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Capt\_B.Phart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_B.Phart)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/124 "2004-05-01T18:55:37Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > What is my idle desire to see **Saddam’s** extremities wired in return for all the crimes he committed has to do with one allegedly innocent person being abused in Iraq by British troops? No fuckwit, it’s your ablitiy to project your hatred for one set of people (Saddam and his “henchmen”) into Considering the proper link: “threats of rape, beating and sodomizing prisoners with a broom handle”, and Bush is saying, that is “not the way we do things in America”? Didn’t we see similar things inside US many times? And that still leaves open the possibility that some of mistreated deserved a whole lot worse. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/125 "2004-05-01T18:57:42Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > So, wishing torture on torturers and wishing murder on murderers makes my mouth an “ugly pie-hole” and negates my moral sense? If you commit torture and murder, then you’re a torturer and murderer. If you only \*wish \* torture and murder be committed by someone else but don’t have the balls to actually do it yourself, you’re a coward. Clear now? Either way, what basis is left for you to claim you’re any better than Saddam? Your defense of “I was only wishing”? No invective from me here; you’re not worth it. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_B.Phart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Capt\_B.Phart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_B.Phart)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/126 "2004-05-01T19:04:39Z")
Gah - Shit, how did that happen? Any ways:- No fuckwit, it’s your ability to project your hatred for one set of people (Saddam and his “henchmen”) into excusing attacks on a different set of people > [@](#): > > Didn’t we see similar things inside US many times? Oh yes, I see now, that makes it all fine - I’m sure the Iraqis will take that into account > [@](#): > > And that still leaves open the possibility that some of mistreated deserved a whole lot worse. First, it’s just a possibility, and a slim one - and how much worse would you like to see it get? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/127 "2004-05-01T19:06:14Z")
**New Iskander** : > [@](#): > > - What is my idle desire to see Saddam’s extremities wired in return for all the crimes he committed has to do with one allegedly innocent person being abused in Iraq by British troops?\* No, you lousy weasel. You are clearly attempting to defend these acts by implying that the person on the receiving end deserved it. You may want to pretend that your last couple of posts were an expression of “idle desire;” but, since these events have in fact happened, we are not dealing with “idle desires” here. > [@](#): > > - What matters to me is that nobody even raised the possibility that those two incidents could be at all justified. For we have only two incidents documented: somebody with wires attached to fingers and somebody savagely beaten.\* Wrong as usual. [Go here](http://www.albasrah.net/images/iraqi-pow/iraqi-pow). (Warning: graphic images.) > [@](#): > > _What if it was Saddam with wires attached? What if it was his main henchman savagely beaten? Why nobody raised that possibility but jumped to heap abuse on US?_ Does that woman being forced to perform fellation look like one of Saddam’s henchmen to you, you pathetic little toad? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/128 "2004-05-01T19:12:10Z")
> [@](#): > > So, wishing torture on torturers and wishing murder on murderers makes my mouth an “ugly pie-hole” and negates my moral sense? What’s the saying? Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn once in a while? [quote] How is that different from my wish to see **Saddam and his henchmen** to go through the same Hell that their victims went through?[/qute] Because one was diplomatic (Powell eating a little crow) and the other was hypothetical, as opposed to real torture? > [@](#): > > What matters to me is that nobody even raised the possibility that those two incidents could be at all justified. Saddam would say the same thing if we had photos of his torture chambers or mass graves- they deserved it, they were criminals, etc. Understand yet, fuckhead? There are legal ways to interrogate people and get information from POWs, there is a code of conduct. (Sleep deprivation is allowed, for example, as is forcing them to stand for long periods of time.) I’ll bet you anything that pissing on people and mock executions are not included. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/129 "2004-05-01T19:40:30Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > This coming from a staunch advocate of an ‘eye-for-an-eye’ principle of Justice. Not so. I consider such tribal forms of crude justice barbaric. Civilized persons aim higher. Law above fear, justice above law, mercy above justice, love above all. > [@](#): > > Didn’t you express a wish for Powell to go the UN and recite his WMD presentation bewailing his own alleged cluelessness? Indeed. Still do. Think it would do him a world of good, perhaps even recover the dignity he has whored. It’s called “penance”. Look it up. Meditate on it. > [@](#): > > Didn’t you express a wish for Kissinger to be given out to the Kurds for all the wrongs he has allegedly done to them? I suggested they might find such a droll bit of irony delectable. They very well might. I don’t recall any shock and outrage expressed by you at the time. Have you been keeping it all pent up, lo, these many months? Poor fellow. > [@](#): > > How is that different from my wish to see **Saddam and his henchmen** to go through the same Hell that their victims went through? Night and day. Heaven and Earth. Buddha and Mengele. A lot, really. > [@](#): > > Is it my fault that **Mr. S.** reacting so strangely to my simple wish? Nothing strange about it. He’s right, and you’re full of shit. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/130 "2004-05-01T19:43:45Z")
> [@](#): > > “Yeah, we in the media will never break a story until the oppostion party decides they want to make it an issue, and then we’re all over that puppy.” > > Utter hogwash. No, not really. The media tends to run in a herd, since it’s mostly following ratings, not an agenda. In many cases in recent memory, obvious scandals have not been major news until someone worked to make them news. That’s not to say that there aren’t lots of reporters running around looking for a juicy story, but to get national recognition a story often has to be a pre-made controversy with good yelling to get some good selling. The Trent Lott thing, for instance, was an obvious target for a Democratic scandal. But the Democrats mostly left it alone, knowing that Lott was better than someone new in his place. It was the right wing blogs that first tlaked up the stories, and a few right wing figures that broke it into the mainstream. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/131 "2004-05-01T19:49:51Z")
I’m saddened beyond belief by your attitude, New Iskander. there is no defence for these acts. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/132 "2004-05-01T19:50:17Z")
According to Seymour Hersh, the Army’s own investigation seems to say that this is more than just a couple of bad eggs: > [@](#): > > As the international furor grew, senior military officers, and President Bush, insisted that the actions of a few did not reflect the conduct of the military as a whole. Taguba’s report, however, amounts to an unsparing study of collective wrongdoing and the failure of Army leadership at the highest levels. The picture he draws of Abu Ghraib is one in which Army regulations and the Geneva conventions were routinely violated, and in which much of the day-to-day management of the prisoners was abdicated to Army military-intelligence units and civilian contract employees. Interrogating prisoners and getting intelligence, including by intimidation and torture, was the priority. [http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa\_fact](http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/133 "2004-05-01T20:04:44Z")
It’s hard to believe that anyone could be so stupid as to even take pictures of this, not even the ones of the woman being orally raped by US soldiers. That makes me wonder if there has been a lot more going on that no pictures were taken of - am I off base with that? Even if not, it may no longer be possible to convince “the Arab street” that our intentions are benevolent. It’s over, and the only questions left are the how and when of the US withdrawal, not the whether. Brigadier General Janis Karpinski, meet Lt. William Calley. I’m sure you two have a lot to talk about. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/134 "2004-05-01T20:54:44Z")
Something from that article about the Army’s investigation: one of the accused torturers alleges that the CIA basically interrograted a man to death (cardiac arrest? it’s not clear), put his body on ice, and the next day faked his “natural” death with a phony IV after which they wheeled his body away without processing him officially as being someone in their custody. As the article says, this is certainly from a man who has every reason to blame higher ups. But he’s making a lot of statements that could be easily disproven if they were lies. Why? By and large these “bad eggs” are all saying that military intelligence people told them to do this, that they were the controlling authority. One of the accused even says that when he raised doubts about whether what they were doing was permissible, they were told that MI has, omninously, “different rules.” Then there’s this, from a man who isn’t being accused of anything: > [@](#): > > Another witness, Specialist Jason Kennel, who was not accused of wrongdoing, said, “I saw them nude, but MI would tell us to take away their mattresses, sheets, and clothes.” (It was his view, he added, that if M.I. wanted him to do this “they needed to give me paperwork.”) Taguba also cited an interview with Adel L. Nakhla, a translator who was an employee of Titan, a civilian contractor. He told of one night when a “bunch of people from MI” watched as a group of handcuffed and shackled inmates were subjected to abuse by Graner and Frederick. So this sounds like it’s more than a few bad eggs. It’s sounds like our policy on how to break people. And really, it isn’t too many steps removed from the sorts of methods MI has openly credited with producing results for them. To those that suggest that our efforts in Iraq have been getting everything they need to suceed, well: > [@](#): > > General Taguba further found that Abu Ghraib was filled beyond capacity, and that the M.P. guard force was significantly undermanned and short of resources. “This imbalance has contributed to the poor living conditions, escapes, and accountability lapses,” he wrote. There were gross differences, Taguba said, between the actual number of prisoners on hand and the number officially recorded. A lack of proper screening also meant that many innocent Iraqis were wrongly being detained—indefinitely, it seemed, in some cases. The Taguba study noted that more than sixty per cent of the civilian inmates at Abu Ghraib were deemed not to be a threat to society, which should have enabled them to be released. Karpinski’s defense, Taguba said, was that her superior officers “routinely” rejected her recommendations regarding the release of such prisoners. To those that claim that the Army was already investigating and dealing with the problem on its own, and so the release of the info and photos was purely to hurt America: > [@](#): > > No criminal proceedings were suggested for Karpinski; apparently, the loss of promotion and the indignity of a public rebuke were seen as enough punishment. This for abuses ranging from murder to rape to beatings to gross violations of human dignity and insults to the religious beliefs of the occupied country. And in general, it seems our detention proceedures violated the Geneva convention: > [@](#): > > Under the fourth Geneva convention, an occupying power can jail civilians who pose an “imperative” security threat, but it must establish a regular procedure for insuring that only civilians who remain a genuine security threat be kept imprisoned. Prisoners have the right to appeal any internment decision and have their cases reviewed. Human Rights Watch complained to Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld that civilians in Iraq remained in custody month after month with no charges brought against them. Sound familiar? Now, if there were special security needs which required us to void the Geneva convention, then at least we should have annnounced this openly. But first of all, we didn’t do that. Secondly, we don’t appear to have done this for special security reasons, but because of lack of manpower, laziness, and simple ignoring of our responsibilities on a large scale. The article also notes that the current investigation is considering whether a previous investigation into similar charges in Afghanistan was basically a whitewash. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/135 "2004-05-01T21:05:21Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Either way, what basis is left for you to claim you’re any better than Saddam? Your defense of “I was only wishing”? Wow. Talk about disconnect. My basis to claim a moral superiority over Saddam is that I am a law-obiding citizen, who never done any harm to anybody, and he is ‘mass murdering piece of shit’. Clear now? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/136 "2004-05-01T21:14:29Z")
> [@Capt B. Phart](#): > > No fuckwit, it’s your ability to project your hatred for one set of people (Saddam and his “henchmen”) into excusing attacks on a different set of people I was not excusing anything, I said that I found it remarkable that nobody here realized that there were people in Saddam Iraq who deserved all that and much worse, interms of simple Justice. And don’t give me that “we must be better” canard. We. Are. Better. Whatever happened was investigated long before you learned about it and culprits will be reprimanded appropriately. The system works. There are abuses but the system works. Nothing that happened in this instance is any different than what regularly happens in US. Why would we expect that when the most desperate and avaricious of our penal servants go overseas, they would behave any different? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/137 "2004-05-01T21:24:42Z")
> [@Mr. Svinlesha](#): > > You are clearly attempting to defend these acts by implying that the person on the receiving end deserved it. You may want to pretend that your last couple of posts were an expression of “idle desire;” but, since these events have in fact happened, we are not dealing with “idle desires” here Talk about mental confusion. I’m asking, why everybody here automatically assumed that the “person on the receiving end” was a complete innocent? Probably because you all have a burning desire to make a certain point? You are so blind with hate that you will swallow anything anti-US. In your own ‘albasrah’ link the pictures of a woman being raped are dislaimed as not official but from a private ‘e-mail’. They could be made by anybody. ---
**Author:** ![flight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbce88/32.png) [@flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flight)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/138 "2004-05-01T21:31:35Z")
Christ, **Iskander** , I never pitt anyone, but you have shown yourself to be such a vile piece of crap with no human compassion that I cannot help but tell you what a fucking twat you are being. > [@New Iskander](#): > > What matters to me is that nobody even raised the possibility that those two incidents could be at all justified. For we have only two incidents documented: somebody with wires attached to fingers and somebody savagely beaten. What if it was Saddam with wires attached? What if it was his main henchman savagely beaten? Why nobody raised that possibility but jumped to heap abuse on US? Because it doesn’t matter! Guilty or innocent you don’t do that to human beings. Saddam thought he had just reasons for torturing his own people. So now you say that his torturing others is reason to torture him. Well guess what fuckwit? There are going to be a lot of Iraqis that are going to say that now OUR PEOPLE who carry out the punishment deserve to be tortured for that. And by you absolutely subhumanly moronic logic they would be right. But then, of course we would have to torture those people and so on and so on. Damn, how can you be so fucking devoid of basic human morality you miserable fucking shit? > [@](#): > > They are simply prankish photos of young criminals frolicking in jail. Those fun loving Iraqi prisoners! Look at how happy they look. Why it’s like they have their own little Arab-Disneyland. It’s probably Dod-damned fucking Jimminy Cricket at the bottom of the pile prisoners dumped naked on top of each other. I bet they were just playing pile on, such fun. Are you really so unbelievably without compassion to dismiss that? We have all said that normal people can perform such action when put in stressful situations where they have no guidance or accountability, but I guess now we have found out that there are semi-human cock monkeys like yourself that think it is fine to begin with. Miserable little cunt. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/139 "2004-05-01T21:33:37Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I suggested they might find such a droll bit of irony delectable. They very well might. I don’t recall any shock and outrage expressed by you at the time. Have you been keeping it all pent up, lo, these many months? Poor fellow. I didn’t express any outrage because I basically agreed with you premise. So when you advocate sending Kissinger to the Kurds and everybody says, “Hear, Hear!” it’s all fine, but when I say that Saddam needs to be given the same treatment his victims suffered I have all sorts of bad words thrown at me? I guess I have an answer to my question now. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/140 "2004-05-01T21:38:28Z")
> [@TwistofFate](#): > > I’m saddened beyond belief by your attitude, New Iskander. there is no defence for these acts. Where did I offer any defence? Where did I say those jailers “are innocent”? They are being properly hadled by proper authorities and it’s fine with me. I was and am questioning the prevailing mental attitudes on this board, as evidenced by this little righteous shitstorm our lefteous wiseacres are trying to whip up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829.md?page=8)