# US military in torture scandal **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 30, 2004, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829 "2004-04-30T11:18:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2004, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/162 "2004-05-02T01:46:51Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally Posted by **New Iskander** _ > I find it quite remarkable that nobody here have wondered, who might be those people under hoods with their extremities wired? > > What if it was Saddam under hood? Doesn’t Saddam deserve exactly such treatment in eternity? > > What if it was one of Saddam henchmen, getting an idea what his victims were going through? They have done such things to so many innocent people! > > Don’t Saddam henchmen deserve to be hooded and their genitals wired with alligator clamps? > > Wouldn’t that be the real Justice? Don’t you get it? If you do like they do, them you are like they are. Aren’t we \*supposed \* to be better than that? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2004, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/163 "2004-05-02T02:22:06Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > If I were to say, “I wish Bin Laden and his henchmen were put in airplane and smashed against his bunker” to serve Justice, would anyone mind? I would mind too, like I do when I read people wishing some criminal to be subjected to various tortures. But your stance is way worse. > [@](#): > > Instead, I am being called names. > > Why? > > . I can’t see many reasons, besides the fact that you don’t get that torturing people, even evil people, is generally not well-accepted : -You’re searching excuses for the criminals, not calling revenge on them, like people making similar statements usually do. -You’re condoning the criminal acts, and attacking the _victims_ -You’re totaly oblivious of any sense of justice : since they _might_ be guilty of _something_, then it could be justified to torture them. -Your sole concern seems to be claiming again and over again “we” are better than “them” when faced with the fact that part of the “we” are criminals. What seems to be important to you is the criticism of your country, the criminal acts being irrelevant. -Your display of a total lack of compassion -You’re accusing people who denounce a crime of “siding with the mass-murderers”, while the person siding with the criminals is _you_ -You’re accusing people who denounce a crime of being motivated only by their political agenda, rather than by the most obvious reason : disgust and compassion. -More generally, you display a total inability to grasp the feelings of the people who posted here, which, as I said, is telling about your own personnality. -You also display a total inability to grasp the reasonnings of said people. What justice is about seems to completely escape you. -You’ve no qualm condemning something when the “evil” guys do it, and excusing it when the “good” ones do the same. To sum up, contrarely to people who simply state “I wish the baby-killer to be tortured” (and for that only deserve scorn) , you’re accumulating all the possible offensive statements one can imagine, you’re siding with the culprits against the victims, you’re attacking the people who are disgusted by the criminal behavior in insulting ways, you’re showing a total lack of compassion and sense of justice, you let appear clearly that you crave for making people suffer, you’re clueless about the basic values that your own society cherish, you don’t show an ounce of humanity. People have been flammed for uttering only _one_ statement similar to yours. You’re accumulating in one thread enough despicable comments to feed a dozen different pittings. And you don’t do that only once, but you go on searching new excuses and making new attacks over and over again, actively digging your own grave. You appear totaly stubborn and stuck in your idiocy and moral bankruptcy. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2004, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/164 "2004-05-02T02:28:50Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The _second_-most offensive? Come on, don’t leave us hanging like that. The most offensive IMO was a poster who argued that the whole middle-east should be nuked, a couple years ago. I considered leaving the SD board at this time, given the level of hate he displayed, which amounted for me to a call for genocide, without receiving any blame from the moderators. He had been banned latter, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2004, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/165 "2004-05-02T02:30:54Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Not only your statements are disgusting, \*\* Iskander \*\* , but you seem to be completely off-base. Off-base because you believe that people condemn such actions only for partisan reasons. IOW, you believe that these people wouldn’t be disturbed by these acts if they didn’t furthered their agenda. That they would ignore them. It tells _a lot_ about _you_, \*\* Iskander \*\* if you believe that the main reason people state their disgust is their political stance. Really? Before I buy your ‘excellent’ argument, may I take it for a test-drive? We are talking about application of an ancient ‘an eye for an eye’ principle. Because I said that Saddam deserves to be tortured just like his victims were tortured, I was called ‘the lowest form of life’. Yet I didn’t suggest doing to Saddam anything that he didn’t do to other people. Bush sent US soldiers to fight in Iraq. If I were to say, “dress Bush in combat gear and parachute him over Falluja”, would you still call me ‘the lowest form of life’? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2004, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/166 "2004-05-02T02:38:26Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Really? Before I buy your ‘excellent’ argument, may I take it for a test-drive? > > We are talking about application of an ancient ‘an eye for an eye’ principle. > > Because I said that Saddam deserves to be tortured just like his victims were tortured, I was called ‘the lowest form of life’. > > Yet I didn’t suggest doing to Saddam anything that he didn’t do to other people. > > Bush sent US soldiers to fight in Iraq. > > If I were to say, “dress Bush in combat gear and parachute him over Falluja”, would you still call me ‘the lowest form of life’? It’s amazing! You can read and write English without showing the slightest awareness of the actual meaning of the words. Frankly, I’m astounded. What you are suggesting is not even acceptable for rabid dogs. What is so difficult about the concept that acting like a horrible human being is equal to being a horrible human being? I’d like to think that my country is not full of horrible human beings. Call it a whim. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2004, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/167 "2004-05-02T02:43:07Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > Aren’t we \*supposed \* to be better than that? We are better than that. However, we are not exactly angels. That’s the whole point. Nothing was done in that prison that wasn’t done many times over in US prisons. Why is it suddenly such a big surprise? We have to deal with such stuff all the time. We are talking about _jail guards_, for crying out loud! They may be superior forms of life than Me, but still… There are proper procedures in place for dealing with such things within the system. Of all those righteous lefties, spouting their condemnations now, how many entertained an idea to go serve in Iraq, to make sure things are put to right all the time? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2004, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/168 "2004-05-02T02:46:26Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > . > > Because I said that Saddam deserves to be tortured just like his victims were tortured, I was called ‘the lowest form of life’. You’d only deserve to be called a moron for this. It’s _not_ for this reason that you’ve been called so, it was just a little drop in an ocean of offensive statements. And you know it perfectly well. You should stop pretending. Or at least I hope you know it perfectly well, since otherwise, if you don’t get why you’re being flammed, you’re even more unable to understand the basic concepts of decency than I thought. I would probably prefer to believe that you’re only displaying hypocrisy, here. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2004, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/169 "2004-05-02T02:49:19Z")
I just cannot stop crying. I am so angry I am shaking. How the FUCK can we make this stop?! I want our troops the hell out of there NOW, replaced by neutral United Nations forces who will oversee the remainder of the transition. How the motherfucking holy FUCK can anyone support the goddamned bastard Commander In Chief of our military NOW? He fucking knew about this months ago, yet not a goddamn thing has been done about it. It’s HIS army. It’s HIS repsonsibility. Where’s the anger and the outrage we should be hearing coming from him? Where are the abject apologies to the Iraqi people? Where is _anything_ from that fuckwad besides a bunch of lip service about how this “does not reflect the nature of the American people. That’s not the way we do things in America”? AS IF THAT’S GOING TO MATTER TO THEM NOW, YOU SHITSTAIN! > [@](#): > > [http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/01/iraq.prisoner.reax/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/01/iraq.prisoner.reax/index.html) > > “Shame on America. How can they convince us now that it is the bastion of democracy, freedoms and human rights? Why do we blame our dictators then?” asked Mustafa Saad, who was reading morning papers in a downtown Cairo cafe, the A.P. reported. > > \ > > “Americans claim that they respect freedom and democracy, but only in their country,” Taher, 24, added. > > \ > > Hussein al-Saeedi, spokesman for Kuwait’s al-Salaf radical Islamic group, said the images “make every sensible person doubt all the principles Western democracies are offering” and show the need for an end to the U.S. occupation. > > “America justified its invasion of Iraq by saying the country was under a dictatorship. Unfortunately, Americans are now torturing the Iraqi people in the same place Saddam tortured them,” he said. > > \ > > “I can’t describe what I felt when I saw those scenes; they revolted me and proved the barbarity of the occupation forces,” said Mohammad Salman, a traffic policeman, Reuters reported. “What’s the difference between them and Saddam? They are finishing what he started,” he said. !!!SCREEEEEEEEAM!!! ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2004, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/170 "2004-05-02T02:50:56Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > . > > Of all those righteous lefties, spouting their condemnations now, how many entertained an idea to go serve in Iraq, to make sure things are put to right all the time? At least, we can be relieved that _you_ aren’t serving in Irak and applying your concepts. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2004, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/171 "2004-05-02T02:51:45Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > It’s amazing! You can read and write English without showing the slightest awareness of the actual meaning of the words. Frankly, I’m astounded. What you are suggesting is not even acceptable for rabid dogs. What is so difficult about the concept that acting like a horrible human being is equal to being a horrible human being? I’d like to think that my country is not full of horrible human beings. Call it a whim. The question was, “if I suggest to parachute Bush over Falluja, would you still call me names?” Please answer the question. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2004, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/172 "2004-05-02T02:54:18Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > It’s _not_ for this reason that you’ve been called so, it was just a little drop in an ocean of offensive statements. And you know it perfectly well. You should stop pretending. Except saying that I wish to see Saddam tortured like his victims were tortured, what other ‘offensive’ statements have I made? Quote, please. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2004, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/173 "2004-05-02T02:57:21Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > The question was, “if I suggest to parachute Bush over Falluja, would you still call me names?” Please answer the question. Without a parachute? Don’t tempt me. No, I couldn’t care less if you suggested that. How can you possibly think that your opinion that explicitly prohibited and uncivilized treatment of prisoners is OK is equivilant to the suggestion that Bush go fight in the war? Are you nuts? ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2004, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/174 "2004-05-02T02:59:40Z")
I miss December, I remember the good all days when we employed 5 pages trying to argue with him and make him see the light. This new guy Iskander… what can I say to you that hasn’t been said before? Perhaps I could tell you my country’s experience where law-abiding, church going Generals decided that the best way to fight terrorism was dropping all suspects from airplanes to the sea. Argentina’s war against terrorism was the most succesfull ever. In a short time all terrorists were eliminated, along with their wives, children, plumbers, bakers and pharmacists. If you really want to fight terrorism hire Videla as your advisor. We are still paying the consequences thirty years later. I really doubt I can convince you New Iskander so, and considering this is the pit, go and fuck yourself, you worthless excuse of a human being ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2004, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/175 "2004-05-02T03:00:47Z")
**New Iskander’s** tag line: > [@](#): > > “Free inquiry cannot flourish among idiotic certainties of ignorant men” from H. L. Mencken H. L. Mencken would have put his foot up **your** ass 'til it hit your tonsils. You made no “free inquiry.” You only embarassed yourself. And continue to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2004, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/176 "2004-05-02T03:52:20Z")
He isn’t pretending. He really doesn’t see that there is no difference among torturers according to their motives, or the actions of their victims. He thinks that some right is given to those he agrees with to practice any act that furthers his own interests. This isn’t ignorance, or stupidity. It is evil. And it is everywhere. And I bet it isn’t far from a plurality opinion among Bush supporters. End this war now. It is already destroying our nation. It is destroying our very souls. Let’s declare ourselves the losers, sign a surrender that has our safe retreat as it’s only condition, and get the hell out of Iraq. Let’s ask every nation where we have troops if they really want our troops there. Because we have an army that incarcerates noncombatants without review by any other authority. We have an army that tortures its prisoners. We are the evil empire. We should stop. George Bush should be surrendered to the appropriate world court for being the Commander in Chief of an army that violates all of fundamental international laws about conflicts between nations. This is disgusting on so many levels that we should each be deeply ashamed of our complicity in it. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2004, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/177 "2004-05-02T04:05:35Z")
Like Juanita Tech, I am not surprised at all. Why expect the Americans and British to be different from other soldiers who are brainwashed into thinking that “we” are the good guys and “they” are evil? _Demonization_. The women and men directly responsible for the torture should be tried for war crimes and so should the person or persons responsible for putting them into those positions without appropriate training for the treatment of POW’s. Who made the decision to allow civilians to interrogate the prisoners? I would think that that choice was made pretty far up the chain of command. Is this a violation of the Geneva Conventions? How many of you think that six or seven other American soldiers chosen for the task would have behaved any differently toward the prisoners? Those who are guilty were probably fairly ordinary kids a couple of years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2004, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/178 "2004-05-02T04:17:36Z")
> [@Triskadecamus](#): > > It is evil. It’s the very same evil that gives rise to people like Saddam. It’s quite fond of trying to disguise itself behind noble motives, but the fruits of its actions mark it as evil for anyone who has eyes to see. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2004, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/179 "2004-05-02T04:35:04Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > Without a parachute? Don’t tempt me. No, I couldn’t care less if you suggested that. > > How can you possibly think that your opinion that explicitly prohibited and uncivilized treatment of prisoners is OK is equivilant to the suggestion that Bush go fight in the war? Are you nuts? Finally, an honest answer! I didn’t say that treatment of prisoners was OK, I said I wish it was Saddam standing there with wires attached. Don’t make stuff up. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2004, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/180 "2004-05-02T04:41:42Z")
> [@Estilicon](#): > > Perhaps I could tell you my country’s experience where law-abiding, church going Generals decided that the best way to fight terrorism was dropping all suspects from airplanes to the sea. Argentina’s war against terrorism was the most succesfull ever. In a short time all terrorists were eliminated, along with their wives, children, plumbers, bakers and pharmacists. If you really want to fight terrorism hire Videla as your advisor. > We are still paying the consequences thirty years later. Are you saying that ‘desaparecidos’ are Bush or US fault, too? We never had anything anywhere close to such atrocities on US soil. What’s the connection? Because you messed up, we have to be sorry? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2004, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829/181 "2004-05-02T04:54:53Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > It’s the very same evil that gives rise to people like Saddam. It’s quite fond of trying to disguise itself behind noble motives, but the fruits of its actions mark it as evil for anyone who has eyes to see. So, wishing Saddam to experience the same pains he inflicted on other people “gives rise to people like Saddam”. Because it’s a vicious circle, right? We need to brake it, right? Let them torture and kill, we’ll do the real justice. We put them in air-conditioned spacious cells with all the amenities, provide them with a lawyer, that’s what real Justice is, right? Still wrong? Oh, I see, the invasion itself is illegal. So, we had to stay out, right? Let Saddam a free hand to continue with torture and murder, right? That’s what real Justice is, right? I thought so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-in-torture-scandal/242829.md?page=10)