# US Military Personnel should not be allowed to work for tyrants **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 18, 2022, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-personnel-should-not-be-allowed-to-work-for-tyrants/973457 "2022-10-18T19:16:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2022, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-personnel-should-not-be-allowed-to-work-for-tyrants/973457/1 "2022-10-18T19:16:34Z")
[Gift link to WaPo article](https://wapo.st/3s30qt5) > [@](#): > > More than 500 retired U.S. military personnel — including scores of generals and admirals — have taken lucrative jobs since 2015 working for foreign governments, mostly in countries known for human rights abuses and political repression, according to a Washington Post investigation. > … > To shed light on the matter, The Post sued the Army, the Air Force, the Navy, the Marine Corps and the State Department in federal court under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA). After a two-year legal battle, The Post obtained more than 4,000 pages of documents, including case files for about 450 retired soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines. > > The documents show that foreign governments pay handsomely for U.S. military talent, with salary and benefit packages reaching six and, sometimes, seven figures — far more than what most American service members earn while on active duty. At the top of the scale, active four-star generals earn $203,698 a year in basic pay. > … > > Those seeking authorization for foreign work must also pass a background check and counterintelligence review. The State Department and the armed forces have wide latitude to deny any application they think “would adversely affect the foreign relations of the United States.” But The Post investigation found that approval is almost automatic. Of the more than 500 requests submitted since 2015, about 95 percent were granted. > > The armed forces rely on retired military personnel to self-report their intent to work for foreign governments. Many veterans don’t bother. The Post identified scores of retirees on LinkedIn who say they have taken military contracting jobs in the Persian Gulf, but for whom there is no record of federal approval. > > There is no criminal penalty for violating the law. Enforcement is almost nonexistent. This is appalling. And there’s a lot more to the article–check it out. Simply put, my tax dollars are being used to train military personnel who are then profiting off the training by using that expertise to help repressive, brutal tyrants around the world. That’s gotta stop. There is no advantage to me as a US citizen to this practice. There is no advantage to us in having the government fight the journalists researching this topic. There is no advantage to the world to having US military knowhow be purchased by the likes of [edited to remove brain fart] Saudi Prince bin Salman al Saud. And yes, I know the US military has a lot of brutality in its history, and I am in no way shocked that there is gambling on these premises. But this should be an easy, uncontroversial fix. For starters, no nation- with a serious record of human rights abuses should be able to hire retired US military personnel, full stop. And the violation of this law should be a felony, with significant enforcement power. Does anyone disagree? ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2022, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-personnel-should-not-be-allowed-to-work-for-tyrants/973457/2 "2022-10-18T19:20:14Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > There is no advantage to the world to having US military knowhow be purchased by the likes of Jamal Kashoggi. Point of order, Mr. Chairman. Khashoggi was the journalist who was murdered, not the person responsible for killing the journalist. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2022, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-personnel-should-not-be-allowed-to-work-for-tyrants/973457/3 "2022-10-18T19:20:38Z")
Oh for god’s sakes, brain fart, thank you! I’ll fix that. ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2022, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-personnel-should-not-be-allowed-to-work-for-tyrants/973457/4 "2022-10-18T19:36:53Z")
Israel. Israel has a record of serious (and ongoing) human rights violations. It’s also considered one of our closest allies. The United Kingdom. Its human-rights violations were so egregious in the 1700s that we broke apart from them. The United Kingdom is also one of our closest allies. I’m just citing two examples, but yeah… no Saudi Arabia, no China. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2022, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-personnel-should-not-be-allowed-to-work-for-tyrants/973457/5 "2022-10-18T19:41:05Z")
To preface, if there were a blanket rule of “no hiring yourself out to foreign governments,” I think that’d be a just fine rule. Or if the approval rate were in the low single digits, or if there had to be a really good fuckin’ rationale for a case before it were considered, we’d be good. That said, stipulating that Israel has ongoing human rights violations, no, they shouldn’t be eligible any more than Saudi Arabia should be. The United Kingdom, though? Do they have a serious _current_ record of human rights violations, especially a record that involves their current military? The word “ongoing” is an important word, and I’m happy to include that in my claim. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2022, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-personnel-should-not-be-allowed-to-work-for-tyrants/973457/6 "2022-10-18T22:38:06Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That said, stipulating that Israel has ongoing human rights violations, no, they shouldn’t be eligible any more than Saudi Arabia should be. It’s a moot point - Israel has no need to import U.S. military personnel, as that happens to be one resource the country has no shortage of. Are you familiar with the phrase, “coal to Newcastle”? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2022, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-personnel-should-not-be-allowed-to-work-for-tyrants/973457/7 "2022-10-18T22:46:20Z")
Certainly Israel has no need of former senior US military for their martial training, talents, or experiences. As you say, they’ve got plenty of their own world class folks. An interesting and probably unanswerable question about all of these military ex-pat jobs and workers whether in Israel or elsewhere, is how much the local government is hiring the person for their supposed “connections” back home as a way to obtain soft flavors of intel as well as access to the right ears to whisper into. If that’s the real attraction: a backchannel to/from the Pentagon, the White House, and the US military-industrial complex, then only a genuine US military former bigwig can fill that bill. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2022, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-personnel-should-not-be-allowed-to-work-for-tyrants/973457/8 "2022-10-18T23:33:56Z")
> [@ekedolphin](#): > > no Saudi Arabia, The U.S. will go out of its way to not upset Saudi Arabia. One reason (of many) is that it has purchased [10s of billions of dollars of military hardware](https://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/30/world/middleeast/with-30-billion-arms-deal-united-states-bolsters-ties-to-saudi-arabia.html) from the U.S., with [more to come](https://www.defensenews.com/2022/08/02/state-department-clears-weapons-sales-to-saudi-arabia-uae/). Don’t want to upset that deal. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-personnel-should-not-be-allowed-to-work-for-tyrants/973457/9 "2022-10-19T01:23:49Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > One reason (of many) is that it has purchased [10s of billions of dollars of military hardware](https://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/30/world/middleeast/with-30-billion-arms-deal-united-states-bolsters-ties-to-saudi-arabia.html) from the U.S., with [more to come](https://www.defensenews.com/2022/08/02/state-department-clears-weapons-sales-to-saudi-arabia-uae/). Don’t want to upset that deal. Now that the Sauds have signed up with Putin to fuck us over on gas prices, the next shipment should be sent with the pointy-end forward. See how they like it when they’re treated like they treat others. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-personnel-should-not-be-allowed-to-work-for-tyrants/973457/10 "2022-10-19T01:46:06Z")
If you want to take up arms for a foreign government, or otherwise use your U.S. militrary training on their behalf, renounce your U.S. citizenship, and go. This country isn’t a prison. As for keeping your service retirement pay after that – probably not. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-personnel-should-not-be-allowed-to-work-for-tyrants/973457/11 "2022-10-19T01:46:48Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > For starters, no nation- with a serious record of human rights abuses should be able to hire retired US military personnel, full stop. So we can sell military supplies for billions to countries with human rights abuses, but our vastly underpaid soldiers can’t work for those same governments? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-personnel-should-not-be-allowed-to-work-for-tyrants/973457/12 "2022-10-19T02:00:46Z")
We can pay them more if underpayment is the problem. One way to do what the OP suggests is to do what Biden did to the Chinese chip manufacturers just last week: tell every American working for a targeted company that they can have their job or their US Citizenship, but they can’t have both: > **[Biden’s chip controls may force Chinese-Americans working in China’s...](https://finance.yahoo.com/news/biden-chip-controls-may-force-092957115.html)** > > The Biden administration's new export controls on chips bar "U.S. persons" from supporting China's development of advanced computer chips. Same principle, targeting autocratic powers, sure, I have no problem with the OP’s idea. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-personnel-should-not-be-allowed-to-work-for-tyrants/973457/13 "2022-10-19T02:08:02Z")
Mostly KSA, eh? No “US Military personnel” are working for tyrants. Only retirees. Do they not have the right to get jobs? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-personnel-should-not-be-allowed-to-work-for-tyrants/973457/14 "2022-10-19T02:25:33Z")
Sure. The conservative in me says they can just get different jobs. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-personnel-should-not-be-allowed-to-work-for-tyrants/973457/15 "2022-10-19T03:24:56Z")
Special rules for specific occupational abilities are not unheard of. Doctors have certain obligations to care for the wounded, under the law, regardless of whether they’re on the job, ever going to get paid, or otherwise. I believe that former soldiers also always have the chance to get called back into active duty. That said, I do think that the norm that you should have full knowledge of what you’re getting into, ahead of time, is reasonable. If you started a career with the impression that you could take your knowledge and go freely peddle it, afterward, then it’s somewhat unreasonable for us to change the rules on you, right under your feet. But, saying that anyone new to join up is going to have a limit on what they can do after they retire seems reasonable. But, that said again, if you asked soldiers how many of them joined with the intention of being able to peddle their ability to kill others righteously, to foreign powers, that number is probably pretty tiny. Likewise, the majority of them are going to be young enough that shutting off that avenue is far from dooming them to destitution. I’d probably grant a special exception to those who were currently serving and over the age of 50. Otherwise, it’s not allowed no more and never more. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-personnel-should-not-be-allowed-to-work-for-tyrants/973457/16 "2022-10-19T03:43:08Z")
I see two unrelated issues. One is ex US military using their skills to take other jobs. Frankly, i have no issue with that. The military trained them for its own purposes, and once it no longer needed them, they should be free to use those skills to make money, just like everyone else. The other is US citizens working for tyrants. I do see grounds to say that you can’t work for North Korean and keep your US citizenship, for instance. Or maybe the US wants to ban citizens from using certain skills for certain other countries. But i really don’t think it’s relevant whether those people obtained their skills in the military or by working for some private contractor. Employers shouldn’t own employees after they move on. Not even the military. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-personnel-should-not-be-allowed-to-work-for-tyrants/973457/17 "2022-10-19T04:19:22Z")
> [@ekedolphin](#): > > The United Kingdom. > > Its human-rights violations were so egregious in the 1700s that we broke apart from them. [And then we joined them in an on-going abuse](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjNfXK6QpqY&t=5s). ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-personnel-should-not-be-allowed-to-work-for-tyrants/973457/18 "2022-10-19T04:59:50Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Sure. The conservative in me says they can just get different jobs. As a senior, try getting a job you do not have massive experience in. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Special rules for specific occupational abilities are not unheard of. Doctors have certain obligations to care for the wounded, under the law, regardless of whether they’re on the job, ever going to get paid, or otherwise. I believe that former soldiers also always have the chance to get called back into active duty. Sure. And if the Military had a rule you could not be a consultant for a foreign nation when retired, fine. But our guys also consult for Australia, Canada, and others. KSA is not an enemy, they are any ally. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > I do see grounds to say that you can’t work for North Korean and keep your US citizenship, for instance. OFAC regs would probably prohibit that- at least you will have huge issues getting any funds in or out. But the KSA is not on the OFAC prohibited list. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-personnel-should-not-be-allowed-to-work-for-tyrants/973457/19 "2022-10-19T05:12:31Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > As a senior, try getting a job you do not have massive experience in. Senior officers get very generous retirement benefits. Rest assured, they can get by just fine without selling their services to tyrants. I retired as a mere O4 and I could do just fine never working again. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-personnel-should-not-be-allowed-to-work-for-tyrants/973457/20 "2022-10-19T08:23:38Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > > mostly in countries known for human rights abuses i.e. _a lot_ of current US allies. Remove the beam before you point out the splinter, I’d say. Why should _retired_ personnel be prevented from working with some countries when your _actual military_ happily works with the [same](https://www.centcom.mil/OPERATIONS-AND-EXERCISES/USMTM/) or equal shitbags? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-personnel-should-not-be-allowed-to-work-for-tyrants/973457.md?page=2)