# US military salute question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 6, 2009, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-salute-question/520183 "2009-12-06T10:55:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2009, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-salute-question/520183/101 "2009-12-09T06:38:29Z")
But don’t they teach them anything at West Point or OCS or whatever? I’d think that leadership skills would be the cornerstone of officer training. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2009, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-salute-question/520183/102 "2009-12-09T06:43:15Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > “working”? If you are on a work detail, you don’t salute. The NCO in charge does that. I meant the other way around, lets say if two officers are standing outside and discussing something and 12 enlisted men walk past doesn’t it interrupt the officers discussion to constantly return salutes? How does anyone get anything done in that situation? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2009, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-salute-question/520183/103 "2009-12-09T06:56:33Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > But don’t they teach them anything at West Point or OCS or whatever? I’d think that leadership skills would be the cornerstone of officer training. Theoretically. That’s just in jest–my oldest brother is a West Point graduate. Yes, they’re taught some leadership skills in ROTC/Federal Service Academies/OCS. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2009, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-salute-question/520183/104 "2009-12-09T10:05:46Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > But don’t they teach them anything at West Point or OCS or whatever? I’d think that leadership skills would be the cornerstone of officer training. There is saying that 10% of any sufficiently large group will be assholes, and I have found that is true among military officers as well. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2009, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-salute-question/520183/105 "2009-12-09T12:49:26Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > What about enemy officers under a flag of truce? Or out of respect? > [@Musicat](#): > > All I know about POWS is what I saw in _The Bridge on the River Kwai,_ but didn’t the British officers (POWs) salute the Japanese officers (enemy)? And don’t enemies, when meeting at a conference or other neutral territory, salute each other? > > On a more modern and personal level, when I was in the US Army, I mentioned to a friend that I sometimes crossed the street to avoid having to salute a superior officer since it made me feel obligated. My friend pointed out that the officer was _required_ to return my salute, and probably didn’t want to be bothered, but I was able to force him to do it anyway, and he was the one being obligated, not me. > > A wise friend in many ways. Him, I would have saluted voluntarily. The requirement is for officers of “friendly nations”. Anything beyond that would simply be determined on a case by case basis by whomever is present. It’s not a requirement to salute, but if someone wanted to be courteous or show some mutual respect or something, I don’t think anyone would fault them for it either. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2009, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-salute-question/520183/106 "2009-12-09T13:55:36Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I’d hazard to say that there is something nonsensical about \*forcing \*soldiers to display respect. The way I see it, soldiers show respect by doing their jobs; anything more is just needless ass-kissing that demeans everyone involved. > > Some militaries do just fine without day-to-day saluting. While I’m sure there are some militaries that don’t salute, I assume they are in the vast minority. You are clearly not in the military, nor to you have any desire to. I guess that you just aren’t interested in that, which is fine. I joined the Navy because of two reasons. I loved my country and wanted to do my part, and I love camaraderie. I played team sports in high school and in college, and I missed the camaraderie, teamwork and sense of community that I got from team sports and from college. If you aren’t plugged into that mentality, then all of the military culture that you find repugnant will seem nonsensical I’d guess. I salute countless times on a given day. At this point I return more than I initiate, but when I started I was one of the most junior. At no point did I see it was nonsensical, or obsequious or demeaning. I saw it just the opposite. I respected the Navy, the Officer I was saluting, and 200 year history that this all represented, and I was proud to be a part of it. And when that big old Admiral saluted (returned the salute) of this young kid that had been in the Navy for all of about six months, I was proud to be a part of this fine organization. Feeling demeaned? Nothing could be, or could have been further from the truth. (This is why I’m surprised that the Army folks are defending their Officer’s not returning salutes. If you are trying to build a team, based on mutual support and respect, then having seniors not return salutes is patently counter productive. I think there is a bigger separation in the Army between Os and Es than there is in the Navy. That might play a part in this. As shown by the link up thread, Navy personnel are required to return salutes. I don’t care enough to look for the Army regs, but I’d still be surprised that it’s not required. And if it’s not? Perhaps that’s part of the problem in the Army.) Alessan, I think you’d be hard pressed to find even Enlisted folks that want to do away with saluting. And since you’ll never be in the military, (and think we are mindless automatons anyway) what do you care what we do? ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2009, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-salute-question/520183/107 "2009-12-09T15:08:49Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Frankly, I’m shocked that someone made it as far as LT without being taught the basics of leadership. Being taught the basics of leadership and applying them are two different things. In most services an Lt is a O-1 or O-2. And not all officers have graduated from the academy. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-salute-question/520183/108 "2009-12-09T16:53:36Z")
**spifflog** I think **Alessen** was in the Israeli Defence Forces. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2009, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-salute-question/520183/109 "2009-12-09T16:55:29Z")
In most commonwealth military and naval forces if you receive a salute when sitting down, you don’t salute back you nod. is it the same in the US? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2009, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-salute-question/520183/110 "2009-12-09T16:59:09Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > While I’m sure there are some militaries that don’t salute, I assume they are in the vast minority. > > You are clearly not in the military, nor to you have any desire to. I guess that you just aren’t interested in that, which is fine. I joined the Navy because of two reasons. I loved my country and wanted to do my part, and I love camaraderie. I played team sports in high school and in college, and I missed the camaraderie, teamwork and sense of community that I got from team sports and from college. If you aren’t plugged into that mentality, then all of the military culture that you find repugnant will seem nonsensical I’d guess. > > … > > Alessan, I think you’d be hard pressed to find even Enlisted folks that want to do away with saluting. And since you’ll never be in the military, (and think we are mindless automatons anyway) what do you care what we do? You know what they say about making assumptions? You make an ass of you and umption. I am not, as you say, “in” the military as we speak. However, I \*was \*in the military 3 weeks ago, and I will be again the next time my reserve unit is called up. For the record, I serve as an Operations Sergeant in the 5035 Infantry Battalion, of the 417 Rift Brigade. My rank is _Rav-Samal_, or First Sergeant, and I’d give you my name and serial number - but you have to catch me first. The camaraderie is indeed great, and while I don’t think of myself as a mindless automaton, I’m sure there are some on this board who’d disagree. And no, we don’t salute. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2009, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-salute-question/520183/111 "2009-12-09T17:02:02Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > In most commonwealth military and naval forces if you receive a salute when sitting down, you don’t salute back you nod. is it the same in the US? I have seen officers return the salute of a gate sentry from the seated position in a car, but other seated salutes are rare in the USN, as far as I can remember. If a seaman walks into his CO’s or Admiral’s office, he would stand at attention, but does not salute. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2009, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-salute-question/520183/112 "2009-12-09T19:22:15Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > You know what they say about making assumptions? You make an ass of you and umption. > > I am not, as you say, “in” the military as we speak. However, I \*was \*in the military 3 weeks ago, and I will be again the next time my reserve unit is called up. For the record, I serve as an Operations Sergeant in the 5035 Infantry Battalion, of the 417 Rift Brigade. My rank is _Rav-Samal_, or First Sergeant, and I’d give you my name and serial number - but you have to catch me first. The camaraderie is indeed great, and while I don’t think of myself as a mindless automaton, I’m sure there are some on this board who’d disagree. > > And no, we don’t salute. I think the proper phrase is when you assume, you make an ass of u and me. 😃 We clearly look at the world differently. I’m surprised at your take, but it clearly works for you and your military. ---
**Author:** ![A\_Man\_A\_Plan\_A\_Canal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/839c29/32.png) [@A\_Man\_A\_Plan\_A\_Canal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_Man_A_Plan_A_Canal)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2009, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-salute-question/520183/113 "2009-12-09T20:37:32Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > And when that big old Admiral saluted (returned the salute) of this young kid that had been in the Navy for all of about six months, I was proud to be a part of this fine organization. Feeling demeaned? Nothing could be, or could have been further from the truth. Concur with the Navy officer; as a young Airmen, I very clearly remember encountering the commander of the base I was stationed at in those days–the wonderful Major General Norma Brown–as she exited and I entered the base personnel office on an errand. I found voice to say “Good afternoon, General Brown,” as I saluted, to which she cheerily smiled and responded “Good afternoon, young airman!” as she crisply saluted back. I was very proud and pleased to be part of an organization that had that little ritual, and not then or ever since in the least demeaned or belittled by it. For me, it’s always been a privilege to participate in the ritual, and most of the enlisted troops I’ve known and led feel that same way. Alessan, I think you’d be hard pressed to find even Enlisted folks that want to do away with saluting. And since you’ll never be in the military, (and think we are mindless automatons anyway) what do you care what we do? I never heard of any enlisted people ever proposing to do away with saluting. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![A\_Man\_A\_Plan\_A\_Canal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/839c29/32.png) [@A\_Man\_A\_Plan\_A\_Canal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_Man_A_Plan_A_Canal)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-salute-question/520183/114 "2009-12-09T20:47:09Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > But don’t they teach them anything at West Point or OCS or whatever? I’d think that leadership skills would be the cornerstone of officer training. Well, they do get a lot of training, but they lack experience–not their fault, and once in operational units, they usually get right up to speed. Some of the young officers I’ve seen lack a sense of the Air Force culture. One example: A young female lieutenant arrived in my unit and I helped her get quarters and inprocess. She had come from what we call OTS (the AF equivalent of Navy OCS) and I spoke to her several times over her first few days. She asked me a question one afternoon: “Sergeant, can you tell me something?” I said “Of course, Ma’am.” She said “I heard a couple of the troops talking about having to go see the shirt. What does that mean?” Any enlisted person in the AF knows who the “shirt” is: it’s the senior NCO assigned as a senior enlisted advisor to the commander. The formal name of the position is “First Sergeant,” but it is often called “First Shirt” or simply “Shirt” by the troops. The idea that someone could not know who the shirt is strikes your average troop as hilarious, but how can someone know if they don’t have experience with the culture? Saluting is just part of that culture. Whether the officer technically _must_ return the salute is interesting but really immaterial. New officers quickly learn the great wisdom in returning salutes, regulation or not. AMAPAC ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Mondegreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/91b2a8/32.png) [@Lord\_Mondegreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Mondegreen)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2009, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-salute-question/520183/115 "2009-12-09T23:53:49Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > I think the proper phrase is when you assume, you make an ass of u and me. 😃 The “assumption” thing was a Homer Simpson joke. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-salute-question/520183/116 "2009-12-10T01:01:52Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I am not, as you say, “in” the military as we speak. However, I \*was \*in the military 3 weeks ago, and I will be again the next time my reserve unit is called up. Every person I’ve ever met in the military–from whatever country–considers Reservists to be in the military even when they’re not called up. > [@mlees](#): > > If a seaman walks into his CO’s or Admiral’s office, he would stand at attention, but does not salute. Unless the occasion for the visit is Captain’s Mast or Admiral’s Mast. For that, the “guest of honor” is required to salute. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-salute-question/520183/117 "2009-12-10T06:05:16Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Every person I’ve ever met in the military–from whatever country–considers Reservists to be in the military even when they’re not called up. It’s part of the whole “citizen-soldier” ethos. There has to be a clear distinction - at any point in time you can be either a citizen or a soldier, but you can’t be both. If everyone is a soldier all the time, then you don’t have a society, you have a military. Soldiering is like a hat you put on when you need it and hang up when you’re done. It’s just a hat a citizen is obliged to wear. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-salute-question/520183/118 "2009-12-10T06:22:33Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > It’s part of the whole “citizen-soldier” ethos. There has to be a clear distinction - at any point in time you can be either a citizen or a soldier, but you can’t be both. If everyone is a soldier all the time, then you don’t have a society, you have a military. > > Soldiering is like a hat you put on when you need it and hang up when you’re done. It’s just a hat a citizen is obliged to wear. One thing I’m curious about regarding Israel’s military vs. the US: as I mentioned above, my belief is that certain arbitrary and even (seemingly) nonsensical rituals are important for creating a sense of belonging to the group. I imagine that in Israel, there’s no question of who the “group” is and no question of the necessity of following orders – you can be called up to do your duty any time, and (importantly) so can all of your mates around you; you’re all in the same boat. And if you don’t do what your commander tells you to do, the loved ones you’re defending are less than an hours’ drive away from the enemy you’re fighting. But coming from a large, diverse and in some ways apathetic society like the US, it’s easier for a soldier to say “this military stuff really isn’t me, I don’t buy into it” and “what the hell difference does it make if I stand at this post 8,000 miles from home?” So do you (any of you military types) think that in some cases its important to instill a sense of camaraderie and group belonging by sort of contrived and arbitrary means (saluting, memorizing chants & hymns, polishing your boots just so); means that for an outsider might seem silly if they don’t understand the purpose? And _is_ the purpose understood in such terms? Just curious. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-salute-question/520183/119 "2009-12-10T06:22:56Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Officers are pretty easy to spot in the field, salutes or not: they’re the guys next to the guys with the antennas. The more antennas, the higher ranking the officer. As Steve Keshner wrote: “In the Marine Corps, my job was carrying a double-E-8 radio with a whip antennae sicking up, announcing to all the world that if you shoot in the direction of this antenna, there’s sure to be a lieutenant or captain nearby. The job is usually given to the loudest wise-guy in the rifle platoon.” It’s not every day you get a chance to quote Keshner. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-salute-question/520183/120 "2009-12-10T11:39:26Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > One thing I’m curious about regarding Israel’s military vs. the US: as I mentioned above, my belief is that certain arbitrary and even (seemingly) nonsensical rituals are important for creating a sense of belonging to the group. > > I imagine that in Israel, there’s no question of who the “group” is and no question of the necessity of following orders – you can be called up to do your duty any time, and (importantly) so can all of your mates around you; you’re all in the same boat. And if you don’t do what your commander tells you to do, the loved ones you’re defending are less than an hours’ drive away from the enemy you’re fighting. > > But coming from a large, diverse and in some ways apathetic society like the US, it’s easier for a soldier to say “this military stuff really isn’t me, I don’t buy into it” and “what the hell difference does it make if I stand at this post 8,000 miles from home?” > > So do you (any of you military types) think that in some cases its important to instill a sense of camaraderie and group belonging by sort of contrived and arbitrary means (saluting, memorizing chants & hymns, polishing your boots just so); means that for an outsider might seem silly if they don’t understand the purpose? And _is_ the purpose understood in such terms? Just curious. While indeed there’s no real need to tell us what we’re fighting for, the Israeli military puts a huge emphasis on espirit du corps and unit cohesion; it’s just that it approaches it in a slightly different manner. There’s a reason the IDF has something like 20 different beret colors, after all. Each unit has its own songs, traditions and customs (you can tell which brigade an infantryman started out in by the length of his rifle strap), and lots of a units activities are designed to increase motivation and bonding. Of course, such activities can include stuff like 60 km forced marches in full kit, so sometimes I think a little saluting may be preferable (not that American troops don’t go on long marches too, obviously). There are a bunch of reasons why the Israeli military is so “casual”, many of them historical, but there’s also a conscious decision involved to keep things simple. It’s the whole Henry V shtick: \* We are but warriors for the working-day; Our gayness and our gilt are all besmirch’d With rainy marching in the painful field; There’s not a piece of feather in our host– Good argument, I hope, we will not fly– And time hath worn us into slovenry: But, by the mass, our hearts are in the trim;\* America also has a long history of forced simplicity, dating back to Benjamin Franklin; I’m surprised none of it ever trickled down into the military. Incidentally, I have nothing but respect for the U.S. ability to endure long deployments overseas. No IDF unit would last even two months that far away from home. > [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > As Steve Keshner wrote: “In the Marine Corps, my job was carrying a double-E-8 radio with a whip antennae sicking up, announcing to all the world that if you shoot in the direction of this antenna, there’s sure to be a lieutenant or captain nearby. The job is usually given to the loudest wise-guy in the rifle platoon.” That’s pretty much it - except for the fact that in my experience, radios were given to some of the best troops in the company; the officers saw it as grooming them for command. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-salute-question/520183.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-salute-question/520183.md?page=7)