# US military weapons inscribed with secret bible codes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2010, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518 "2010-01-19T03:36:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/181 "2010-01-23T06:09:00Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > It’s like trying to wash the Kosher off your food before eating it… Bacon: What can’t it do? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/182 "2010-01-23T06:23:02Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, all it takes is for one brave experimenter to take a leak in the holy water font the next time he’s in church, and observe and record the results. Well, the Jordan River was the original holy water, where Jesus was baptized. I mean, is there any good reason why a Messiah can’t pee in the pool like everybody else? ---
**Author:** ![Bookkeeper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bookkeeper/32/281_2.png) [@Bookkeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bookkeeper)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/183 "2010-01-24T07:12:05Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I find it comical and the next time I get my hands on my Canadian Forces Reserve-issued rifle, I’ll check the scope, though it’s almost certainly from a different manufacturer. > > I don’t see what the big deal is, myself. It’s not really any different from someone naming computer subroutines after his favourite fictional characters. [We got them, too.](http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Biblical+citations+found+Forces+gunsights/2470965/story.html) I’d be angry if I was still in and was issued one of these. Not my religion, so why should they be allowed to make me carry their religious propaganda around. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/184 "2010-01-24T11:09:47Z")
> [@Bookkeeper](#): > > [We got them, too.](http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Biblical+citations+found+Forces+gunsights/2470965/story.html) I’d be angry if I was still in and was issued one of these. Not my religion, so why should they be allowed to make me carry their religious propaganda around. It’s propaganda that only works if you know where to look and if you have the magic codebook to interpret the phrases. If your army-issued flashlight was made by (hypothetically) the Gideon Torch flashlight company and had their company name and logo on it somewhere, that would be a far more blatant example. Would a _random_ occurrence of JN318 (or whatever) in a serial or part number number be as bad? Is the intent of the manufacturer the critical factor? If it is, I’d ask again what if the company had had each item blessed by a holy man of the company president’s faith, so the magical enchantment was invisible? Would that make a difference? ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/185 "2010-01-24T12:44:10Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Would a _random_ occurrence of JN318 (or whatever) in a serial or part number number be as bad? Nope > [@](#): > > Is the intent of the manufacturer the critical factor? Yes > [@](#): > > If it is, I’d ask again what if the company had had each item blessed by a holy man of the company president’s faith, so the magical enchantment was invisible? Would that make a difference? If the company puts it on public record that they do such, yes it is an issue. If they secretly bless the items and no one ever knows I could care less. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/186 "2010-01-24T19:47:35Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > If the company puts it on public record that they do such, yes it is an issue. If they secretly bless the items and no one ever knows I could care less. And what if they announced that they’d blessed the items? Blocking out or scratching off a few numbers is easy, but would you have to defile the item to “de-holy” it, or return it? ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/187 "2010-01-24T20:15:09Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > And what if they announced that they’d blessed the items? Blocking out or scratching off a few numbers is easy, but would you have to defile the item to “de-holy” it, or return it? The problem is a company used their connection with the military to spread their religion through the military. We shouldn’t be making contracts with companies that think that’s OK to do. I don’t care if it’s putting numbers on the items or blessing them. The military has already been put in a bad position because of this damage is done. Rubbing out the numbers is a band-aid solution to me. The military has to counter the companies overstep of their bounds publicly. That costs money to do. The company should be fined for that. If they got items that are blessed and the manufacturer makes that public the military in my opinion would only need make it public knowledge they did not approve. In the case of the numbers rubbing them out is a stronger message they don’t approve. In both cases my preferred solution would be to replace the items with equivalent items from a more responsible manufacturer. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/188 "2010-01-24T20:34:46Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > The problem is a company used their connection with the military to spread their religion through the military. We shouldn’t be making contracts with companies that think that’s OK to do. Well, let’s keep perspective. They spread numbers and letters, and in a manner not even a fraction as direct as enclosing a Chick tract in every scope box. I’m not aware of anyone who’s been converted because of what was printed on his scope, so how much spreading of religion is this, really? > [@](#): > > I don’t care if it’s putting numbers on the items or blessing them. The military has already been put in a bad position because of this damage is done. Rubbing out the numbers is a band-aid solution to me. The military has to counter the companies overstep of their bounds publicly. That costs money to do. The company should be fined for that. Only if there was a specific restriction against this sort of thing. Some extra letters and numbers don’t, as far as I know, interfere with the operation of the scope, nor are they a violation (I expect) of the agreed specifications. Without seeing the contract, of course, I can’t be sure. > [@](#): > > If they got items that are blessed and the manufacturer makes that public the military in my opinion would only need make it public knowledge they did not approve. In the case of the numbers rubbing them out is a stronger message they don’t approve. Problem solved, n’est-ce pas? > [@](#): > > In both cases my preferred solution would be to replace the items with equivalent items from a more responsible manufacturer. Pricey, and for what benefit? Me just speculating about a priest blessing the items on the assembly line is enough for some people to start using citing this as truth, if they want to and think their cause will benefit. We see lies sworn as truth all the time. I heard (well, made up) that not only is a priest blessing the scopes, but a Jew splashes each with the blood of a Muslim child. There. I just gave somebody a justification for the next 20 years of holy war and they can quote me out of context as: > [@](#): > > not only is a priest blessing the scopes, but a Jew splashes each with the blood of a Muslim child If I was as important as by all rights I _should_ be, given my wit and charm, the above quote might get splashed across Al-Jazeera’s website as early as tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/189 "2010-01-24T20:50:40Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, let’s keep perspective. They spread numbers and letters, and in a manner not even a fraction as direct as enclosing a Chick tract in every scope box. I’m not aware of anyone who’s been converted because of what was printed on his scope, so how much spreading of religion is this, really? If all they did was put numbers on the scopes it would be a non-issue to me. That is not the case however the spokesman for the company said it was a religious message. It was their intent to use our military equipment to spread knowledge of their religion. > [@](#): > > Pricey, and for what benefit? Me just speculating about a priest blessing the items on the assembly line is enough for some people to start using citing this as truth, if they want to and think their cause will benefit. We see lies sworn as truth all the time. I heard (well, made up) that not only is a priest blessing the scopes, but a Jew splashes each with the blood of a Muslim child. There. I just gave somebody a justification for the next 20 years of holy war and they can quote me out of context as: > > If I was as important as by all rights I _should_ be, given my wit and charm, the above quote might get splashed across Al-Jazeera’s website as early as tomorrow. You are not an official representative of our military or any of the manufacturers that supply them as far as I know. If you were and made such claims I would want you removed from the process as well. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/190 "2010-01-24T21:02:01Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > If all they did was put numbers on the scopes it would be a non-issue to me. That is not the case however the spokesman for the company said it was a religious message. It was their intent to use our military equipment to spread knowledge of their religion. Well, unless they include a New Testament, how is that going to work, exactly? > [@](#): > > You are not an official representative of our military or any of the manufacturers that supply them as far as I know. If you were and made such claims I would want you removed from the process as well. Ah, but I’m _not_ making such a claim. The full statement makes it clear that it’s a willful act of fiction, but you took it out of context in exactly the manner I said some people gladly would if they thought it supported their position or, to be specific, if Al-Jazeera thought it would play to their audience. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/191 "2010-01-24T22:39:37Z")
My stance has been made talking further on it seems pointless here. I feel the only reason your continuing this is so you can pick out some ‘gotcha’ quotes. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/192 "2010-01-24T23:58:07Z")
I _showed_ you a gotcha to demonstrate a point, even putting it it in own quote box. There’s absolutely nothing hidden or furtive or even subtle about my earlier post - it described a tendency to pick out things that are trivial, or things that are blatantly silver-platter wrong to justify outrage about things one finds impolitik. Doesn’t a “gotcha” imply a misleading tactic? ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/193 "2010-01-25T01:04:11Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > And what if they announced that they’d blessed the items? Blocking out or scratching off a few numbers is easy, but would you have to defile the item to “de-holy” it, or return it? Well, if you have used one of these holy sights to actually kill somebody, then I’m pretty sure its defiled and bloody in Jesus’ eyes. I don’t know how you could possibly twist Jesus’ teachings and preachings to justify killing. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/194 "2010-01-25T01:07:34Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > I don’t know how you could possibly twist Jesus’ teachings and preachings to justify killing. Well… historically a great many people have found this to be rather easy, actually. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/195 "2010-01-25T01:28:20Z")
Sure, historically people have always been in denial. But show me a direct quote frrom Jesus’ mouth wherewith he condoned the taking of a life, or inferred any other law but nonviolence and compassion? If you can do it, then history is right and I am wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/196 "2010-01-25T01:37:47Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > Sure, historically people have always been in denial. But show me a direct quote frrom Jesus’ mouth wherewith he condoned the taking of a life, or inferred any other law but nonviolence and compassion? If you can do it, then history is right and I am wrong. Well, if Jesus is God, the Old Testament is just chock full of lethal instructions. Anyway, the words in the book of Matthew would be of little comfort when a bunch of 12th-century Crusaders, their shields bearing a cross, have laid siege to your town. If only a misguided Christian kills, then there have been an awful lot of misguided Christians. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/197 "2010-01-25T06:13:43Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, if Jesus is God, the Old Testament is just chock full of lethal instructions. But isn’t that why they are classified as The Old and The New? Antecedent or Precedent are the choices. Do you prescribe to Jesus’ Word, or not? If you are a Christian, I presume you heed the Words of Christ. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/198 "2010-01-25T09:19:19Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > The verses on each model are the same. Every ACOG has the JN8:12, every Reflex Sight has the CORsomething:something. Etc. So they were just added to the mold or casting die or whatever it is they make the housings with. There is no functional purpose for the code. > The serial number is ingraved elsewhere on the scope, and the part number isn’t anything close to that. Part numbers for those ACOGs are usually like TAS01 or something like that. And the military nomenclature for the DOS ACOG is M150. Thanks for clarifying - I agree then that it doesn’t look at all likely that they have a purpose beyond or underlying their reference to Bible verses. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/199 "2010-01-25T09:37:35Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > But isn’t that why they are classified as The Old and The New? Antecedent or Precedent are the choices. > > Do you prescribe to Jesus’ Word, or not? If you are a Christian, I presume you heed the Words of Christ. There are plenty of Christian soldiers across the world. No matter how you squeeze it, a soldier’s entire job description is killing his fellow man, and/or helping other soldiers killing their fellow men. Hell, every branch of service even employs chaplains to make it perfectly clear, in case any individual soldier has doubts, that God’s OK with it (I know that’s not all chaplains do, but to me the simple fact that they’re a) men of the cloth and b) in the army implies that they reckon God’s OK with it). So either none of them are real [del]Scot[/del]Christians who heed the word of Christ, or the word allows some leeway in the butchery department. I’ll freely admit I’ve never been much of a Christian, and never bothered reading the book for that matter (everybody spoiled the ending for me, anyway). But your line of argumentation seems to have a glaring flaw from this sinner’s point of view. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/200 "2010-01-25T18:01:12Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > But isn’t that why they are classified as The Old and The New? Antecedent or Precedent are the choices. Is Jesus God or not? Is the Old Testament valid or not? > [@](#): > > Do you prescribe to Jesus’ Word, or not? If you are a Christian, I presume you heed the Words of Christ. I don’t, I’m not, and this is a tangent I won’t be following. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518.md?page=11)