# US military weapons inscribed with secret bible codes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2010, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518 "2010-01-19T03:36:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/41 "2010-01-19T11:40:49Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > That’s pretty insulting if we’re giving those things to Israel. I’m guessing that many Orthodox Israeli troops will be \*extremely \*pissed off when they hear about it; some might refuse to carry the devices outright. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/42 "2010-01-19T11:41:04Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I’m not seeing anything in that link that rules out the possibility that a manufacturer with religious leanings might be using bible verses as batch identifiers. What are you referring to? > [@](#): > > Along with the sight’s stock number, there are coded Bible passages from the New Testament engraved on the sights. They are two different markings. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/43 "2010-01-19T11:56:43Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > They are two different markings. Stock numbers and batch IDS are two different ideas. Stock numbers typically remain the same throughout the production life of a part. Batch numbers need to change for each production run. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/44 "2010-01-19T13:34:52Z")
Government Contracting 101: The government has a need for something: toilets, parachutes, rifles. Whatever. So they put out an RFP - a Request for Proposal. This is a document that lays out in some detail what they want. If it’s a toilet, there will be detailed descriptions for each type of toilet needed. Typically, the government doesn’t know exactly how many it will need. So it will negotiate an IDIQ (Indefinite Delivery/Indefinite Quantity) price for the item, and award the contract to supply the item to one or more vendors. When the vendor produces the item, the government tests it and accepts it. By doing so, they agree that the item meets their specifications. If they reject it, they must identify which elements in the solicitation’s requirements were not met. If they asked for a toilet that handles 1.6 gallons per flush, and the delivered toilet balks at that, they may reject it. But if they fail to specify what color the toilets should be, they may not reject the delivered toilet because they’re green. I say all this to say that it’s not clear to me what acquisition rule or CFR the rifle manufacturer violated. There may well have been some specification in the solicitation that forbids this practice, but none of the stories about this have identified it. I agree it’s not a good idea. But is there any specific violation of rule, contract, or law here? Or does the government simply need to tighten up its rifle specifications for future acquisitions? ---
**Author:** ![jinty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dbc845/32.png) [@jinty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jinty)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/45 "2010-01-19T13:36:40Z")
Those who don’t learn from history are doomed to… what’s the phrase? How about the 1857 Indian Mutiny for a historical precedent of people getting pissed about weapons with religious significance? > **[Indian Rebellion of 1857](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Rebellion_of_1857)** > > The Indian Rebellion of 1857 was a major uprising in India in 1857–58 against the rule of the British East India Company, which functioned as a sovereign power on behalf of the British Crown. The rebellion began on 10 May 1857 in the form of a mutiny of sepoys of the company's army in the garrison town of Meerut, 40 miles (64 km) northeast of Delhi. It then erupted into other mutinies and civilian rebellions chiefly in the upper Gangetic plain and central India,\[b\]\[c\] though incidents The nam... [QUOTE=Wikipedia] The final spark was provided by the reaction of Company officers to the controversy over the ammunition for new Pattern 1853 Enfield Rifle. To load the new rifle, the sepoys had to bite the cartridge open. It was believed that the paper cartridges that were standard issue with the rifle were greased with lard (pork fat) which was regarded as unclean by Muslims, or tallow (beef fat), regarded as anathema to Hindus. [/QUOTE] Hundreds of thousands died over a _rumour_! I really hope they haven’t issued these sights to anyone in the Afghan or Iraqi Armies. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/46 "2010-01-19T13:44:04Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I’m trying to envision the circumstances under which the answer to “What would Jesus do?” is “Go for a headshot.” Now I want to know which bible verses are inscribed. For instance, did they use the chillingly appropriate words of Matthew 10:30 ?\*\* (“And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered.”) \*\* Looks like in the OT they went for the center of mass: 2 Samuel 18:14 …So he took three javelins in his hand and plunged them into Absalom’s heart while Absalom was still alive… 2 Kings 9:24 Then Jehu drew his bow and shot Joram between the shoulders. The arrow pierced his heart and he slumped down in his chariot. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/47 "2010-01-19T15:19:51Z")
What precision aiming solution would Jesus buy? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/48 "2010-01-19T15:47:31Z")
> [@jinty](#): > > How about the 1857 Indian Mutiny for a historical precedent of people getting pissed about weapons with religious significance? I was thinking of that earlier. These things have consequences, whether we think they should or not. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/49 "2010-01-19T15:56:14Z")
I find it comical and the next time I get my hands on my Canadian Forces Reserve-issued rifle, I’ll check the scope, though it’s almost certainly from a different manufacturer. I don’t see what the big deal is, myself. It’s not really any different from someone naming computer subroutines after his favourite fictional characters. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/50 "2010-01-19T15:56:28Z")
Can you imagine the shitstorm we’d be hearing about if some weapons manufacture included secret Koran verses on their product? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/51 "2010-01-19T16:00:28Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I’m guessing that many Orthodox Israeli troops will be \*extremely \*pissed off when they hear about it; some might refuse to carry the devices outright. Really? I’m about as secular a Jew as you can get (atheist, non-practicing) - but I thought the Yom Kippur war convinced the IDF that military necessity trumps religion every time. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/52 "2010-01-19T16:00:41Z")
I don’t see the “verses”, here, just what might be interpreted as references to verses, mixed into an otherwise lengthy serial number. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/53 "2010-01-19T16:02:21Z")
It’s a stretch,as the FAR doesn’t really address this. The only prohibition of inscriptions that I know of is where adding “Made in America” to article which, in fact, weren’t is defined as a basis for debarment. That said I think this could fall under the EEO provisions. If the company is not defined as a religious entity, then they would be required to follow the provisions of the EEO and asking someone who is not Christian to inscribe Biblical verses, or create an object to be inscribed, woudl probably be considered hostile. From FAR 22.807 (7) Contracts with religious entities. Pursuant to E.O. 13279, Section 202 of E.O. 11246, shall not apply to a Government contractor or subcontractor that is a religious corporation, association, educational institution, or society, with respect to the employment of individuals of a particular religion to perform work connected with the carrying on by such corporation, association, educational institution, or society of its activities. Such contractors and subcontractors are not exempted or excused from complying with the other requirements contained in the order. As for selling to the Israelis, is it possible these are Old Testament quotes? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/54 "2010-01-19T16:04:08Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > Now I want to know which bible verses are inscribed. For instance, did they use the chillingly appropriate words of Matthew 10:30 ?\*\* (“And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered.”) > \*\* > > Looks like in the OT they went for the center of mass: > 2 Samuel 18:14 > …So he took three javelins in his hand and plunged them into Absalom’s heart while Absalom was still alive… > > 2 Kings 9:24 > Then Jehu drew his bow and shot Joram between the shoulders. The arrow pierced his heart and he slumped down in his chariot. There are so many awesomely appropriate OT verses for modern weaponry! Personally, I always thought some quotes from Jeremiah would go well on nukes: > [@](#): > > Thou art my battle axe and weapons of war: for with thee will I break in pieces the nations, and with thee will I destroy kingdoms; > > And with thee will I break in pieces the horse and his rider; and with thee will I break in pieces the chariot and his rider; > > With thee also will I break in pieces man and woman; and with thee will I break in pieces old and young; and with thee will I break in pieces the young man and the maid; > > I will also break in pieces with thee the shepherd and his flock; and with thee will I break in pieces the husbandman and his yoke of oxen; and with thee will I break in pieces captains and rulers. > > And I will render unto Babylon and to all the inhabitants of Chaldea all their evil that they have done in Zion in your sight, saith the LORD. > > Behold, I am against thee, O destroying mountain, saith the LORD, which destroyest all the earth: and I will stretch out mine hand upon thee, and roll thee down from the rocks, and will make thee a burnt mountain. > > And they shall not take of thee a stone for a corner, nor a stone for foundations; but thou shalt be desolate for ever, saith the LORD. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/55 "2010-01-19T16:07:59Z")
Why would someone bother doing this at all? Is this the right wing version of dotting your i’s with little hearts? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/56 "2010-01-19T16:08:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But is there any specific violation of rule, contract, or law here? Or does the government simply need to tighten up its rifle specifications for future acquisitions? That’s a fair question - but doesn’t the government’s intent enter into the contracting process at all? (Honest question - IANA procurement expert.) At common law, and under most (probably all) state laws, my understanding is that performance of a contract which knowingly perverts the _intent_ of the contract can be held to be a breach. If I’m building your house, and I _know_ you’re allergic to Paint X, but use it anyway because it wasn’t barred in the contract, that’ll be something most courts frown on. At the end of the day, courts expect parties to a contract to interpret that contract reasonably. By a similar token, how could this contractor reasonably believe that it’s acceptable to put Bible quotes on its sights? I mean, a government contractor knows that the government (with rare, clearly delineated exceptions) enforces a rigorous separation of church and state. A military contractor would also know that this separation is likely to be particularly important in this particular context. And doesn’t the fact that the quotes were semi-hidden suggest that the manufacterer knew what they were doing wasn’t within the intent of the contract? I could see the manufacturer raising the argument you suggest - but it seems to smack of unreasonable “gotcha”-ness. Would a federal court decide in favor of such a thing? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/57 "2010-01-19T16:09:22Z")
I’m curious if any tank regiments have latched onto Judges 1:19, the implication being that not even God himself could dislodge their “iron chariots”. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/58 "2010-01-19T16:11:27Z")
P.S. If I could get to youtube, I’d link that great scene from Band of Brothers where the sniper (Shifty?) is reciting a proverb as he shoots the enemy sniper. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/59 "2010-01-19T16:11:50Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m curious if any tank regiments have latched onto Judges 1:19, the implication being that not even God himself could dislodge their “iron chariots”. _Looks it up_ Oh, that’s a good one. 😃 Hey, this is fun … ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/60 "2010-01-19T16:15:07Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > That’s a fair question - but doesn’t the government’s intent enter into the contracting process at all? (Honest question - IANA procurement expert.) I thought of another possible cause of action: If the time and expense of adding the inscription is included in their overhead rate, the Government could cite, fine, or even debar them. (the latter is unlikely) They would have to be able to show that a seperate, unallowable billing code is used to cover all time and expenses related to this practice. I’m betting they can’t. > [@](#): > > Judges 1:19 (New International Version) > > 19 The LORD was with the men of Judah. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had iron chariots. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518.md?page=4)