# US military weapons inscribed with secret bible codes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2010, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518 "2010-01-19T03:36:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![YoureBeingABinkyBoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e0b2c6/32.png) [@YoureBeingABinkyBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoureBeingABinkyBoo)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/121 "2010-01-20T05:03:04Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > To me the issue identified is the company does not have the responsibility or foresight to be a contractor for out military. I don’t want any of my tax dollars to head in their direction. All things being equal, I’d agree and say Trijicon needs to have their peepee whacked. If there is another company that has the experience, the capacity, and the capability of producing a product that equals Trijicon’s for the same price, go for it. I just wouldn’t want our guys getting something inferior because we’re being politically correct. If not, tell Trijicon to stop with the bible thumping on government contract sights, but do keep using their gear. As a former cav scout, I gotta say, these sights are important - we’re not talking about who’s making the beef stroganoff in the MRE’s. Quality matters here, and Trijicon makes good stuff. I guess I just see it from the point of view of the soldier - personally, I really don’t care if Haji now has a 247th reason to want to saw my head off on YouTube, I want the best optics so I can kill Haji before he gets close enough to spray and pray with his Kalashnikov. Then again, if we recall all the bible sights, I wouldn’t mind picking one up on ebay for cheap. [This is an ACOG](http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=trijicon+acog&go=&form=QBIR&qs=n&sc=6-13) for anyone who’s not familiar. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/122 "2010-01-20T05:24:31Z")
> [@YoureBeingABinkyBoo](#): > > 😃 What a good thread. Thanks Jesus! Um, as I wrote the OP, well, I never thought I’d have to say this, but, (awkwardly digs toe into dirt), um, I feel I should point out, um, that I’m not actually Jesus. Anyway, you’re welcome.😃 ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/123 "2010-01-20T06:13:00Z")
> [@YBABB](#): > > I guess I just see it from the point of view of the soldier - personally, I really don’t care if Haji now has a 247th reason to want to saw my head off on YouTube, I want the best optics so I can kill Haji before he gets close enough to spray and pray with his Kalashnikov. As **Bear\_Nenno** pointed out (and according to him, he actually **is** a soldier deployed in Afghanistan, so I think his take on the “point of view of the soldier” might be better-informed than yours), it isn’t the opinions of enemy jihadis that we care about here, since they’re not going to be well-disposed to us in any case. It’s the non-enemy Muslims in the countries where our soldiers are deployed—as well as the non-Christians among our own troops—that we’d like to avoid offending or insulting with gratuitous plugs for Christianity inscribed on officially issued military weapons. > [@Martini Enfield](#): > > if the information had never been publicised, no-one would be getting worked up about it, because I’m sure insurgents with captured weapons wouldn’t have been going through the serial numbers on the optical sights looking for Biblical references to get upset over. Again, it’s not really the enemy insurgents’ opinions that we care about here. Moreover, it’s not like the “Jesus guns” were a total secret even before the [ABC News story](http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/secret-bible-verses-guns-marines-concerned/story?id=9602030&page=2): > [@](#): > > Back in 2006, on a self-described “Armageddon Forum,” a number of users discuss the Bible references. “Seems there’s a different verse on each model,” writes Mr45auto. “They chose some whoppers too!” > > After the Blotter’s report Monday morning, the TPM Muckraker news Web site listed numerous references to the Trijicon Bible codes on-line dating back several years, including a January 2006 thread on a gaming forum that said “DoD contractor puts bible verses on it’s (sic) products.” > > In May of 2006, a poster on [Militaryphotos.net](http://Militaryphotos.net) began a comment thread by asking, “Has anyone ever noticed the Bible verse on their ACOG sight?” Another user responds, “Yeah I read about that recently, but I didn’t know there were than many different verses on all the different optics.” And I think the blame-the-messenger attitude of “well, it wasn’t the policy that caused the problem, it was the publicizing of it” is short-sighted. Things like this generally do get revealed sooner or later, and the longer they’ve been going on the worse they look. > [@](#): > > U.S. military rules specifically prohibit the proselytizing of any religion in Iraq or Afghanistan and were drawn up in order to prevent criticism that the U.S. was embarked on a religious “Crusade” in its war against al Qaeda and Iraqi insurgents. […] > > Weinstein said coded biblical inscriptions play into the hands of those who call the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan “a Crusade.” > > Retired Army Major General William Nash, now an ABC News consultant, said he had “no problem” with organizations providing Bibles and other religious tracts to U.S. troops. “But I do have a problem,” said Nash, “with military equipment being labeled in a way where it seems like it’s our god against their god.” > > Nash, who commanded the first brigade of the third armored division during Desert Storm in Iraq, said the Pentagon should make Trijicon remove the Bible codes from their sights. > > Said Nash, “They should fix them all, they should do a modification on those sights and take off those inscriptions. And if they fail to do that they should be penalized.” ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/124 "2010-01-20T06:27:58Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Again, it’s not really the enemy insurgents’ opinions that we care about here. Moreover, it’s not like the “Jesus guns” were a total secret even before the [ABC News story](http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/secret-bible-verses-guns-marines-concerned/story?id=9602030&page=2): They may not have been “Secret”, but they weren’t being highlighted on the BBC World Service either. > [@](#): > > And I think the blame-the-messenger attitude of “well, it wasn’t the policy that caused the problem, it was the publicizing of it” is short-sighted. Things like this generally do get revealed sooner or later, and the longer they’ve been going on the worse they look. That’s true, but apparently this company has been doing this for about 30 years and this is the first time anyone’s made a hue and cry about it. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/125 "2010-01-20T06:42:17Z")
> [@Martini Enfield](#): > > apparently this company has been doing this for about 30 years and this is the first time anyone’s made a hue and cry about it. Well, remember that it’s been only about six or seven years that we’ve been involved in wars specifically against radical Islamist extremists that have been widely characterized as anti-Muslim “crusades”. Everybody’s a bit more aware of the impact of religious belief in warfare nowadays. ---
**Author:** ![T.Slothrop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3e96dc/32.png) [@T.Slothrop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.Slothrop)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/126 "2010-01-20T06:49:57Z")
Quote: Originally Posted by YoureBeingABinkyBoo What a good thread. Thanks Jesus! Quote: Originally Posted by Attack from the 3rd Dimension Um, as I wrote the OP, well, I never thought I’d have to say this, but, (awkwardly digs toe into dirt), um, I feel I should point out, um, that I’m not actually Jesus. Anyway, you’re welcome. Not knowing Jesus that well but having known Attack from the 3rd Dim since his birth, I can verify . . . he aint Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/127 "2010-01-20T07:35:55Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > \*The company’s vision is described on its Web site: “Guided by our values, we endeavor to have our products used wherever precision aiming solutions are required to protect individual freedom.” \* > > That’s golden.🆒 Especially since the founder of the company was from South Africa. The must have been selling the sights to the ANC. Certainly they wouldn’t have sold the sights to those trying to limit individual freedom. ---
**Author:** ![YoureBeingABinkyBoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e0b2c6/32.png) [@YoureBeingABinkyBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoureBeingABinkyBoo)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/128 "2010-01-20T18:01:23Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > As **Bear\_Nenno** pointed out (and according to him, he actually **is** a soldier deployed in Afghanistan, so I think his take on the “point of view of the soldier” might be better-informed than yours), it isn’t the opinions of enemy jihadis that we care about here, since they’re not going to be well-disposed to us in any case. Actually, I’m a combat veteran who served in Iraq, and spent the better part of 12 years fighting “radical muslim extremists” in North Africa, the Levant, and the Persian Gulf, serving with both US Naval Intelligence (specializing in counter-terrorism operations) and as a Cavalry Scout (specializing in kicking in doors) in an Army brigade combat team . I like to think my opinion is somewhat well-informed. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/129 "2010-01-20T19:20:17Z")
So seeing as [attributing divine retribution to random tragic events](http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2010/01/13/crimesider/entry6092717.shtml) seems to be popular at the moment, I have to point out that putting Jesus’ teachings on instruments of death and violence would seem far more egregious to God, than centuries old, probably apocryphal, pagan ceremonies. And: > [@](#): > > Trijicon’s founder Glyn Bindon was killed in a plane crash in 2003. Just saying, is all. ---
**Author:** ![Chopper9760](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cdc98d/32.png) [@Chopper9760](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chopper9760)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2010, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/130 "2010-01-21T14:51:30Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > Who is THEY? Are you forgetting that American soldiers can be Muslim? Imagine for a second you are a Muslim soldier fighting in Afghanistan against the Taliban. Fighting for your country that respects all religions and holds no god higher than any other… and that country issues you a scope (or ANY item for that matter) with inscriptions that declare Christ is Lord? Eeeeh, really good point, it was shortsighted of me to only think of the enemy. When you put it that way, it’s a pretty lowdown thing of Trijicon to do. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2010, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/131 "2010-01-21T16:02:41Z")
Putting these numbers on these sights does not help and might hurt. Therefore they ought to be removed. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2010, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/132 "2010-01-21T18:24:59Z")
It is a Holy War, whether it’s Christianity vs Islam or Liberal Secularism vs Islam. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2010, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/133 "2010-01-21T18:53:18Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Mikey Weinstein may not be exactly a household name, but he’s certainly a public figure, particularly in the context of activism against unconstitutional endorsement of religion in the US military. He’s the founder of the [Military Religious Freedom Foundation](http://militaryreligiousfreedom.org/about.html), and he is widely known (in news media references and elsewhere) as “Mikey” rather than “Michael”. To continue this hijack of a hijack, I will note that his nickname “Mikey” was the appellation given to him at the USAF (from which he graduated with honors). [obsessive/compulsive)Way back, somebody mentioned a sniper who recited Biblical proverbs as he took a bead on his target. They claimed it was from ‘Band of Brothers’. Maybe. But it was definitely the habit of Barry Pepper’s character in ‘Saving Private Ryan’.[/ocd] ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2010, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/134 "2010-01-21T23:19:29Z")
[http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=67404](http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=67404) At least some leaders are thinking clearly. Good for General Petraeus. Filed mine down yesterday. And FTR, the Chineses knock-offs do not have the stamped digits. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/135 "2010-01-22T00:14:20Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > It is a Holy War, whether it’s Christianity vs Islam or Liberal Secularism vs Islam. And especially if it’s Invaders vs. Insurgents. Because there can’t _possibly_ be any reason to be there other than wanting to wipe out Islam. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/136 "2010-01-22T00:39:36Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > FWIW, it’s not an inventory number or other id system. It’s a superfluous code. It’s not a batch number or manufacturing code or anything. How can you tell? Is there something that _is_ obviously a batch number marked elsewhere on the item? ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/137 "2010-01-22T01:30:59Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I don’t really like Medieval armour, I like Renaissance armour. 1510-1620. Great helms, mail and tabards aren’t my thing; basically Maximilian and later. > > There’s two issues here. One is, “is it wrong for a company to put Bible verses on military equipment?” In my opinion, yes, it’s wrong and stupid. If _I_ were in charge of manufacturing rifle sights, I wouldn’t inscribe a Bible verse on them. (Maybe a line from Delany’s _Hogg_, a tiny little portrait of J.G. Ballard or a nude girl in profile). > > The other issue is, “would removing the code from the sights actually do us any good?” In my opinion, no it would not. Al Qaeda and the Mujahadeen and all of these people hate us _no matter what_ (unless we all adopted radical Sharia overnight) Complete hijack – I don’t think adopting radical Sharia would placate them for an instant. They make war on each other when it suits them. I have all along thought the religious fanaticism was a cover (and a recruitment incentive) for wanting control over land. That’s what it’s about so much of the time; the Irish didn’t actually want to turn the Orangemen into shiny new Catholics, they wanted them _off the land._ Similarly, the issue in Israel/Palestine begins and ends with _control of the land._ IMHO bin Laden and company want to wrest control of their traditional lands from the current oligarchies and monarchies and see us as an obstacle to that. Not that they would be less ambitious if they got what they now want; they might then come to turn us into coreligionists _subject to their rule,_ but power and control are the goal, not anything so ethereal as souls. > [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > and in my opinion, if we removed the code from the rifle sights, they would find a way to spin _that_ - they would say that Allah has weakened the infidel’s will and made him cave in to them, or that Allah magically made the inscriptions disappear from the sights, or “look at those stupid Americans, they’re trying to appease us.” We’re not going to make them fucking love us - I disagree that we can ever win their hearts and minds, or those of the populace which supports them. > > Removing the code from the sights would be solely something that would be done to make _us_ - American secularists - feel better. I think it would change the minds of the Mujahadeen not a hitch. I agree we wouldn’t change the minds of the leadership and the dedicated holy warriors, but we are not trying to change their minds, and never were. The stupidity of putting holy marks on our gunsights might, however, offend those undecided Islamists who could be swung either way, the silent majority who apparently outnumber bin Laden’s fanatics. These undecided masses are likely to either be (justifiably) offended by our lying about it not being a holy war or to (rightly) judge as as childishly stupid for having put the marks on there – and for not knowing our contractors were doing so. It’s like when you see someone do something stupid enough that you lose respect for him; you can’t even help yourself, sometimes. The self-righteous people who did this are making the rest of us (the official US government and “the people”) look like the Mr. Beans of the military world, raising our eyebrows in quizzical surprise when everyone knows it’s an act. . ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/138 "2010-01-22T06:54:41Z")
Hell, if I really wanted the Juju…I would construct a sight out of a laminate of 32 GB Flash Electromagnetic Materials. Upload every known sacred text from every religion, as well as their books of war onto the sights of my weapon, can’t be too careful… Got Mojo? ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/139 "2010-01-22T07:21:24Z")
The company will provide customers with free modification kits (can you say “Sticker?”) to remove the cites. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518/140 "2010-01-22T07:52:59Z")
Apparently, this is not the only case where secret bible messages have been promoted by the US military. A quick look at former and current handguns deployed shows the following: [Colt 1911](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1911_pistol) Obviously, this super secret code for Revelation 19:11 _“And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war”_ [M9 Beretta](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M9_pistol) - Is actually named for Mark, Chapter 9 which begins: _“I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power.”_ My suggestion is to verify that every single piece of military hardware is not named in an offensive manner in anyway. It’s the only way to be sure. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-weapons-inscribed-with-secret-bible-codes/525518.md?page=8)