# US military WikiLeaks video release **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 5, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047 "2010-04-05T17:37:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/181 "2010-04-07T17:17:41Z")
[QUOTE=Mbossa] WTF are you talking about? YOU are the one who’s claiming that this outrage is totally recreational. So it’s up to YOU to provide evidence of this. [/QUOTE] I assume that either this is a typo and you meant to say ‘the one who’s claiming that this outrage is NOT recreational’, or you really need to share whatever drugs you are on, so we can all be on the same page of delusion. As for my assertions, I have couched them all in purely speculative language for a reason…I THINK I see weapons, I THINK these guys followed the ROE they were flying under, and I THINK that this was simply a tragic accident, a consequence of the fact that these reporters were moving around in a war zone (with a group of possibly armed men), where there had been enemy contact, that they were (perhaps, depending on who they were with) mistakenly taken for armed insurgents and fired on. So…there really isn’t anything for me to back up, nor any reason for me to do so. I don’t believe that, whether these guys were armed or not is relevant from a legal perspective (I’ll leave the moral one to someone else). However, many have asserted in this thread not their opinion, but as a statement of supposed fact that the group was ‘unarmed’, for instance, or that the gunner ‘lied’. Fine. If they assert such things then they need to back that shit up with something other than their subjective feelings based on this film. They need to present some fucking evidence, or they need to back the fuck off either the personal insults being hurled at me OR need to back the fuck off their high horse, and coach their replies in this thread in terms of that this is their out of the ass opinion, based purely on their subjective viewing of this film…which is all I’m asserting. Thanks for playing the SD Great Debate game. Here is your ceramic dog…have a nice day. -XT ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/182 "2010-04-07T17:22:51Z")
[QUOTE=ivan astikov] I’m saying that without electronic aids or binoculars, the Apache crew would not have been able to see anything of any worth… certainly so if they were 1.5 kilometres away. [/QUOTE] Well…I can see 1.5 kilometers from a helicopter, but ok. What makes you think that the pilot or gunner didn’t have other electronic aids available to them? Or that both were watching the same thing the gun camera was watching? > [@](#): > > And if any of their other devices caught anything more conclusive, wouldn’t that evidence have been made readily available? Well, two things spring to mind. One…the recorder on the helicopter was only recording the gun camera and nothing else. Two, these guys were only able to ‘obtain’ this footage, for whatever reason (maybe the other footage wasn’t at hand to whoever liberated the video shown, or maybe it got erased). I don’t know enough about helicopter recording systems to really make even a good guess as to what all is recorded, how it’s recorded, whether it’s all accessible together, or, really anything else. Do YOU have any evidence that this was the sum total of either what the pilot and gunner were seeing/available to them visually or that was recorded? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Mbossa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@Mbossa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mbossa)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/183 "2010-04-07T17:24:06Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I assume that either this is a typo and you meant to say ‘the one who’s claiming that this outrage is NOT recreational’, or you really need to share whatever drugs you are on, so we can all be on the same page of delusion. 😕 So you’re saying you HAVEN’T been repeatedly claiming that people in this thread are participating in recreational outrage? I guess all those drugs I’m on must be causing hallucinations. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/184 "2010-04-07T17:26:34Z")
[QUOTE=Mbossa] So you’re saying you HAVEN’T been repeatedly claiming that people in this thread are participating in recreational outrage? I guess all those drugs I’m on must be causing hallucinations. [/QUOTE] Oh…I misunderheard you there. I thought you mean I was claiming that the gun fire incident was or wasn’t ‘recreational’. Sorry about that, old boy. Ok…so, you want me to prove (with cites) my opinion that the outrage I’m seeing here is recreational? No problem! (you knew this was coming, surely) My Post Is My Cite. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/185 "2010-04-07T17:27:24Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Hey guys, check it out. When you conquer a country and occupy it this is the sort of thing that happens. I mean, what do you think has been happening over there for 7 years? Also, guess who the enemy is when the population is shooting back and organizing themselves to resist you? Civilians. > > Trying to analyze and micromanage this small event is silly. No one should have a beef with the U.S. military personnel in this situation. Your ire should be directed towards Congress, the President, the media, and the moneyed interests who make a fortune off this happening.\ Exactly. I’m a pacifist, because this is _exactly_ what I think goes on in a war. I don’t understand the responses from people in this thread at all; what did you think you were supporting, with your magnetic ribbons on your cars and your flag-waving? Soldiers rounding up enclaves of Iraqi insurgents who are all wearing “Al Quaida” gang jackets? For the record, I don’t think the soldiers did anything wrong by the terms of their engagement in Iraq, which I don’t agree with in the first place. What a bunch of hypocrites. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/186 "2010-04-07T17:29:27Z")
[QUOTE=Cat Whisperer] Exactly. I’m a pacifist, because this is _exactly_ what I think goes on in a war. I don’t understand the responses from people in this thread at all; what did you think you were supporting, with your magnetic ribbons on your cars and your flag-waving? Soldiers rounding up enclaves of Iraqi insurgents who are all wearing “Al Quaida” gang jackets? For the record, I don’t think the soldiers did anything wrong by the terms of their engagement in Iraq, which I don’t agree with in the first place. What a bunch of hypocrites. [/QUOTE] I’m not a pacifist, but I agree with you completely, including that the root cause of these kinds of tragedies are that were were there in the first place. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/187 "2010-04-07T17:39:20Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > **I don’t have to imagine…I’m 100% sure that the gunner and pilot weren’t using only the thermal gun sight for the entire engagement. The pilot, for instance, has other visual aids that, you know, allow him to fly the helicopter. The gunner also would have had an array of visual choices that weren’t part of the recording. If nothing else, they would have had mark-1 eyeball (which is why I can assert this with 100% certainty).** > > How far away did you think they were? IIRC, the readings on the HUD for the gun sight were talking about 1 and a half kilometers, but I could be misremembering. More importantly…why do you believe that the gun camera recordings were the sum total of the visuals available or used by both gunner and pilot? Do you have any (_clears throat_) evidence that this is the case? > > -XT Cite? Cite that they had these things you claim AND that they used them? Or are we just supposed to let you whine about other people needing to provide cites to “prove” things to you, while we just accept anything you assert as “proven”? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/188 "2010-04-07T17:42:25Z")
> [@Terraplane](#): > > Here’s a [link](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/12/AR2007071202357.html) to the Washington Post’s 07/13/2007 article on the incident. It’s amazing how they manage to describe the situation almost exactly how it didn’t happen. I actually think that article reads pretty accurately, especially for a first read on the situation by the reporters. What’s your problem with it, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/189 "2010-04-07T17:45:18Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > I don’t understand the responses from people in this thread at all; what did you think you were supporting, with your magnetic ribbons on your cars and your flag-waving? Soldiers rounding up enclaves of Iraqi insurgents who are all wearing “Al Quaida” gang jackets? Saying that, do insurgents normally walk around a known enemy “hot spot” in full view, barely armed, and wearing gleaming white clothing? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/190 "2010-04-07T17:45:44Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Well…I can see 1.5 kilometers from a helicopter, but ok. What makes you think that the pilot or gunner didn’t have other electronic aids available to them? Or that both were watching the same thing the gun camera was watching? The gun camera is what you aim with. That’s why they put them in the aircraft. It has optics and night vision, of course you’d be looking through it. Honestly, I have to wonder why you think they are looking through anything else. Also, you can’t see shit at 1.5 km. You certainly can’t identify targets with guns, unless you were rocketed from your doomed planet as an infant anyway. 😃 [Here is a guy about a mile away from a reactor](http://www.lebca.com/fromrussiawithlove/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/20091121-%D1%87%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%B8%D0%BB%D1%8C-019.jpg). Could you identify individual men and what they are carrying at that distance? > [@](#): > > Well, two things spring to mind. One…the recorder on the helicopter was only recording the gun camera and nothing else. Two, these guys were only able to ‘obtain’ this footage, for whatever reason (maybe the other footage wasn’t at hand to whoever liberated the video shown, or maybe it got erased). I don’t know enough about helicopter recording systems to really make even a good guess as to what all is recorded, how it’s recorded, whether it’s all accessible together, or, really anything else. Do YOU have any evidence that this was the sum total of either what the pilot and gunner were seeing/available to them visually or that was recorded? > > -XT ---
**Author:** ![Terraplane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@Terraplane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terraplane)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/191 "2010-04-07T17:48:13Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Exactly. I’m a pacifist, because this is _exactly_ what I think goes on in a war. I don’t understand the responses from people in this thread at all; what did you think you were supporting, with your magnetic ribbons on your cars and your flag-waving? Soldiers rounding up enclaves of Iraqi insurgents who are all wearing “Al Quaida” gang jackets? For the record, I don’t think the soldiers did anything wrong by the terms of their engagement in Iraq, which I don’t agree with in the first place. What a bunch of hypocrites. Did you forget what message board you’re posting to? How many people complaining in this thread do you think supported the war in Iraq or drive around with yellow ribbons on their cars? ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/192 "2010-04-07T17:50:11Z")
> [@toadspittle](#): > > I actually think that article reads pretty accurately, especially for a first read on the situation by the reporters. What’s your problem with it, exactly? Well… > [@](#): > > During the fighting, an Apache helicopter fired bursts of 30mm rounds toward several people **who had been directing machine-gun fire and rocket-propelled grenades at U.S. soldiers**. The helicopter also fired on a silver Toyota minivan in the area as several people approached the vehicle, soldiers said. > [@](#): > > It was unclear whether the journalists had been killed by U.S. fire or by shooting from the Iraqis targeted by the Apache. > [@](#): > > The Apache crew fired because militants “were endangering the stability of Iraq” and because they had positive identification that the militants “had weapons and were using them against coalition and Iraqi security forces,” said Maj. Brent Cummings, the battalion’s executive officer. “No innocent civilians were killed on our part deliberately. We took great pains to prevent that. I know that two children were hurt, and we did everything we could to help them. I don’t know how the children were hurt.” ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/193 "2010-04-07T17:50:49Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Exactly. I’m a pacifist, because this is _exactly_ what I think goes on in a war. I don’t understand the responses from people in this thread at all; what did you think you were supporting, with your magnetic ribbons on your cars and your flag-waving? Soldiers rounding up enclaves of Iraqi insurgents who are all wearing “Al Quaida” gang jackets? For the record, I don’t think the soldiers did anything wrong by the terms of their engagement in Iraq, which I don’t agree with in the first place. What a bunch of hypocrites. 1. To be hypocritical about this, wouldn’t someone have had to have been a supporter of the war in Iraq and then also be upset about this incident? Who exactly does your criticism apply to? Please be specific about which posters fall into this category and thus warrant your “bunch of hypocrites” accusation. 2. Having said that, couldn’t someone have been supportive of the war but upset by the judgment of the crew in this incident, and/or upset by the fact that these incidents are withheld from the American public? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/194 "2010-04-07T17:57:01Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Saying that, do insurgents normally walk around a known enemy “hot spot” in full view, barely armed, and wearing gleaming white clothing? Are you suggesting that the military NOT shoot people who are wandering around a war zone with weapons as long as they’re acting casually enough? FTR, I’m in full agreement with Cat Whisperer. As I said earlier, the Army is not the police, and they’re not trained to only fire in self defense. The Army is primarily in the killing-bad-guys business, not in the not-killing-civilians business. This is why you don’t send them in to “wars” like this unless you have a damn good reason. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/195 "2010-04-07T18:04:06Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > The Army is primarily in the killing-bad-guys business, not in the not-killing-civilians business. This is why you don’t send them in to “wars” like this unless you have a damn good reason. Well, they need to be killing more bad guys than civilians. Do you want to remind me of the tally? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/196 "2010-04-07T18:11:03Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Are you suggesting that the military NOT shoot people who are wandering around a war zone with weapons as long as they’re acting casually enough? Our armies are meant primarily to be a defensive force. That means they should save weaponry until there is a direct threat, in my book. Or would you prefer them to shoot at anything that moves and can be interpreted by guys in a chopper 1.5 km away, as a threat, instead? ---
**Author:** ![Terraplane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@Terraplane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terraplane)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/197 "2010-04-07T18:17:02Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > The video presented is ambiguous. What I believe is facts. Do you have any? The video very clearly shows the helicopter shooting unarmed people. The .gif I posted on the first page shows that. [Link](http://xs.to/image-EAAE_4BBA3924.gif). Were there no weapons there at all? I don’t know, there might have been a couple armed people there, it’s possible. But if 10 people are standing around and two of them are armed, that doesn’t justify relentlessly hunting down each and every single person in the crowd. This is urban combat in a city with millions of people, reacting this way to a possible threat is, IMO, outrageous. If you want to label that as recreational go ahead, but I think it’s justified. You might be right though. Maybe all of this fell within the ROE. That makes it even worse. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/198 "2010-04-07T18:18:40Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Our armies are meant primarily to be a defensive force. That means they should save weaponry until there is a direct threat, in my book. Or would you prefer them to shoot at anything that moves and can be interpreted by guys in a chopper 1.5 km away, as a threat, instead? I’d prefer the Army to sit around fat and dumb and happy and never have to do anything. Barring that, I’d prefer that they only engage in wars with a clearly defined , uniformed enemy in an environment chock full of traditional military targets. Waiting until there’s a direct threat is poppycock. If the Army in WWII saw a dozen uniformed Nazis walking around in open daylight, armed or not, I’d want them to kill them. That’s what the Army is trained to do. Fair fights and chivalry have no place in modern warfare. Iraq is a bad place for the Army. They have two options – kill almost nobody because there are civilians everywhere who look just like the enemy, or make mistakes like this. I don’t believe that there’s a middle option where soldiers make nothing but good judgments and only the bad guys get killed. Does not exist. Not in the reality I’m living in, at least. Which is why I’ve been against this “war” for the last 7+ years. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/199 "2010-04-07T18:22:12Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Fair fights and chivalry have no place in modern warfare. So why have the Geneva Conventions then? How about just lining POW’s up against a ditch and mowing them down with machine gun fire? Why spend extra money holding them in prisons? ---
**Author:** ![tbook](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/df705f/32.png) [@tbook](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tbook)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/200 "2010-04-07T18:35:11Z")
Terraplane: > [@](#): > > Were there no weapons there at all? I don’t know, there might have been a couple armed people there, it’s possible. But if 10 people are standing around and two of them are armed, that doesn’t justify relentlessly hunting down each and every single person in the crowd. The following is from an interview with Fox News. > [@](#): > > Julian Assange, a WikiLeaks editor, acknowledged to Fox News in an interview Tuesday evening that “it’s likely some of the individuals seen in the video were carrying weapons.” > > Assange said his suspicions about the weapons were so strong that a draft version of the video they produced made specific reference to the AK-47s and RPGs. Ultimately, Assange said, WikiLeaks became “unsure” about the weapons. He claimed the RPG could have been a camera tripod, so editors decided not to point it out. > > “Based upon visual evidence I suspect there probably were AKs and an RPG, but I’m not sure that means anything,” Assange said. Nearly every Iraqi household has a rifle or an AK. Those guys could have just been protecting their area." I am satisfied that some of the men in the group were armed. I remain unsure to what extent the video was edited and since the Pentagon can’t come up with there copy we may never know. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047.md?page=11)