# US military WikiLeaks video release **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 5, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047 "2010-04-05T17:37:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/281 "2010-04-08T17:30:48Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > You’re not even making any sense. > > Are you really claiming that the problem here is that our military’s hands are tied? What alternative are you arguing for, because it would seem that pulling ground troops out and using only bunker busters against any potential insurgents among the civilians would be a reasonable alternative for you. That’s not even close to what I was saying. Froth less and read more. As I’ve been saying throughout this entire thread, this is what combat looks like. It does no good to wag our fingers at what the soldiers did here because this is the kind of shit that happens when a heavily armed military force invades another country. This is part of the reason why we get into these messes in the first place, because our intelligent and engaged citizenry thinks our military is some kind of precision strike force like they’ve seen in movies, and when they make the inevitable mistake we all freak out because they didn’t perform flawlessly. We’re such goddamned children sometimes. > [@](#): > > But I tell you what - if you can make the argument that somehow taking the gloves off and using even more overpowering force against any and all Reuters staff will somehow achieve a goal for us, I’ll have to concede. And this is why Wikileak’s editorializing on the video was a mistake. Of course _you_ know they were journalists. How could _the soldiers_ have known? ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/282 "2010-04-08T17:32:15Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Really? What an extraordinary proposition! You can prove this? If you had to leave your home in one of the suburbs because it wasn’t safe, and it was eventually made safe enough to return, wouldn’t you be happy? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/283 "2010-04-08T17:37:52Z")
Don’t know. I can hazard a guess as to how I’d react if a friend or loved one were killed by foreign troops ostensibly deployed for my protection. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/284 "2010-04-08T17:39:46Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > If you had to leave your home in one of the suburbs because it wasn’t safe, and it was eventually made safe enough to return, wouldn’t you be happy? Are you an American? We get into blood rages because one city’s football team beats ours. Do you really think that if the Russians invaded us, and a bunch of Red Dawn types took up arms against them, that we’d be grateful to the Russians if they only killed a handful of our citizens for each Red Dawner they took out? Really? “I’m so thankful that you’ve killed the recalcitrant Americans! Thanks for letting me keep one of my children, too! I welcome our liberating Russians! Here’s some chocolates.” I think you’d probably sound a little more like the guy in the second video at this link, who is the brother of the Reuters photographer: > **[Glenn Greenwald - Salon.com](https://www.salon.com/writer/glenn_greenwald)** > > Est. reading time: 1 minute ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/285 "2010-04-08T17:42:30Z")
Okay, you guys are right. Everyone lost a relative, and it was all for no reason because the American military could have performed perfectly but chose not to. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/286 "2010-04-08T17:49:35Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Okay, you guys are right. Everyone lost a relative, and it was all for no reason because the American military could have performed perfectly but chose not to. Is it that you don’t know that isn’t what we’re saying, or do you hope to acheive by slander what you cannot accomplish with reason? ---
**Author:** ![Terraplane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@Terraplane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terraplane)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/287 "2010-04-08T17:52:09Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Okay, you guys are right. Everyone lost a relative, and it was all for no reason because the American military could have performed perfectly but chose not to. Nobody expects them to perform perfectly, just better. Stop taking things to the furthest possible extreme. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/288 "2010-04-08T17:53:07Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Okay, you guys are right. Everyone lost a relative, and it was all for no reason because the American military could have performed perfectly but chose not to. I think the criterion level for perfection that you have is different than mine. Not blasting away at good samaritans in vans with their children in the front seat versus perfection? Those are the only two options offered to us? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/289 "2010-04-08T18:14:09Z")
Since when do experienced insurgents stand around in clusters with no weapon preparedness, and dressed in what looks like the most unlikely camouflage I’ve ever seen? Did this group really look as if it was preparing an attack on ground troops? Oh, and with a couple of weapons between 20 of them. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/290 "2010-04-08T18:14:47Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I think the criterion level for perfection that you have is different than mine. > > Not blasting away at good samaritans in vans with their children in the front seat versus perfection? Those are the only two options offered to us? The answer to that is another question: how in the hell would they have known that? They didn’t _see_ the children from the chopper. They saw a van picking up a wounded man and assumed “dead bodies and weapons”, an assumption which must have been made by extensive previous experience in dealing with these situations. The insurgents apparently regularly try to recover any wounded/dead compatriots as well as any weapons they can, presumably to re-integrate people and weapons back into their group. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/291 "2010-04-08T18:16:46Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Since when do experienced insurgents stand around in clusters with no weapon preparedness, and dressed in what looks like the most unlikely camouflage I’ve ever seen? They were _moving_. And I’m not sure anyone is actually _calling_ them insurgents, rather, that the American helo pilots had good reason to _believe_ that they were. And they were armed. Not all of them, but some of them. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/292 "2010-04-08T18:20:04Z")
[QUOTE=ivan astikov] Since when do experienced insurgents stand around in clusters with no weapon preparedness, and dressed in what looks like the most unlikely camouflage I’ve ever seen? Did this group really look as if it was preparing an attack on ground troops? [/QUOTE] What uniform do you expect most insurgents in Iraq were wearing in 2007 (or today for that matter)? I remember seeing a video of a guy wearing a black tee shirt and jeans pop up and fire an RPG at a Humvee. As to moving in groups…again, why do you think they they don’t do this? Why would they NOT do this? Do you have any EVIDENCE that insurgents don’t move in this manner, or dress in this manner? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Terraplane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@Terraplane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terraplane)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/293 "2010-04-08T18:36:23Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > What uniform do you expect most insurgents in Iraq were wearing in 2007 (or today for that matter)? I remember seeing a video of a guy wearing a black tee shirt and jeans pop up and fire an RPG at a Humvee. > > As to moving in groups…again, why do you think they they don’t do this? Why would they NOT do this? Do you have any EVIDENCE that insurgents don’t move in this manner, or dress in this manner? > > -XT I doubt most of them were insurgents because most of them were unarmed. I can’t see why 10 guys would run around assaulting US troops when they only have 2-3 weapons between them, it just doesn’t make much sense. I agree with you on the clothes at least. If you’re an insurgent, the last thing you want is some kind of army style camo. In a city of millions of people the best camouflage you’re going to find is street clothes. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/294 "2010-04-08T18:42:27Z")
[QUOTE=Terraplane] I doubt most of them were insurgents because most of them were unarmed. I can’t see why 10 guys would run around assaulting US troops when they only have 2-3 weapons between them, it just doesn’t make much sense. [/QUOTE] Well, my point earlier was we don’t know what these guys were. They could have simply been armed people who were living in the area. It’s a dangerous place, after all, so I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of Iraqi men who aren’t involved in either side have AK-47’s in their closet (at one point Saddam et al were handing the things out like water, after all, shortly after the second invasion…plus, there has got to be boat loads of the things lying about from the various fights). They could have been some kind of body guards. Or, the reporters might have been embedded with a group of insurgents…or a group of AQ…or even a group of local militia. We just don’t know. We also don’t know just how many of them were armed…or what all they were armed with. I don’t think the video sheds much light on this, and I still have never gone to that link from the GQ thread, so not really sure what all it says about what was found after US ground troops got to the area. -XT ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/295 "2010-04-08T18:44:36Z")
> [@Terraplane](#): > > I doubt most of them were insurgents because most of them were unarmed. I can’t see why 10 guys would run around assaulting US troops when they only have 2-3 weapons between them, it just doesn’t make much sense. > > I agree with you on the clothes at least. If you’re an insurgent, the last thing you want is some kind of army style camo. In a city of millions of people the best camouflage you’re going to find is street clothes. I don’t believe any of them were actually insurgents. And as for their clothing, it seemed more suitable for a trip to the market place than it did for going out and raising hell with the enemy, had they been insurgents. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/296 "2010-04-08T18:46:36Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I don’t believe any of them were actually insurgents. And as for their clothing, it seemed more suitable for a trip to the market place than it did for going out and raising hell with the enemy, had they been insurgents. What kind of clothes do insurgents usually wear? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/297 "2010-04-08T18:47:08Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > so not really sure what all it says about what was found after US ground troops got to the area. > > -XT Well, “Hotel Two-Six” is the one to ask. He/they were the ones asked to go and take photos of the aftermath, before the van turned up. I wonder if we’ll get to see any of those pictures? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/298 "2010-04-08T18:49:13Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > What kind of clothes do insurgents usually wear? Well, if I was one, I’d at least want something to cover my face if I was going into a battle-zone. Non tight-fitting clothing and maybe something to carry extra ammo and other equipment in, would be handy. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/299 "2010-04-08T18:51:57Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Well, “Hotel Two-Six” is the one to ask. He/they were the ones asked to go and take photos of the aftermath, before the van turned up. > > I wonder if we’ll get to see any of those pictures? Who knows, but even if we do, invariably someone will claim that since they weren’t convinced of their existence in the video that any weapons found/photographed at the scene in the aftermath were planted by US forces. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/300 "2010-04-08T18:54:08Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Well, if I was one, I’d at least want something to cover my face if I was going into a battle-zone. Non tight-fitting clothing and maybe something to carry extra ammo and other equipment in, would be handy. You could also paint a target on your shirt with the phrase “I am an insurgent” under it in bright letters. Most street fighters value the anonymity of looking like everybody else. They’re not fighting pitched battles. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047.md?page=16)