# US military WikiLeaks video release **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 5, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047 "2010-04-05T17:37:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/321 "2010-04-08T21:24:36Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > I’m not blind and I’ll admit to some bias towards our military, having a rich tradition of service within my family, but my bias is more sympathetic than militant. And we wouldn’t be having this discussion if it was, in fact, “blatantly obvious”. Its not, ergo, debate ensues. Let’s say it’s blatantly obvious to a neutral then, and the only people defending it are those with an affinity to the military. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/322 "2010-04-08T21:27:20Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Let’s say it’s blatantly obvious to a neutral then, and the only people defending it are those with an affinity to the military. Its only blatantly obvious to you and a couple others that claim it to be so. The absence or presence of weapons is the sticking point in this debate. Due to the grainy quality of the video, it is NOT blatantly obvious. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/323 "2010-04-08T21:31:23Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > He’s stating what is blatantly obvious to all but the most wilfully blind, or biased observer. What are you stating? Oh, that’s it - that we all need “evidence”, or else you aren’t going to alter your opinion. What evidence do you think the average Doper has, that you don’t think Reuters would have already tried getting? It was blatantly obvious that they weren’t a threat because they weren’t walking around a certain way? So anything short of army crawls and they had to be left alone? Please, General, explain how you would have conducted a combat patrol in Iraq during the surge. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/324 "2010-04-08T21:38:32Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Okay lets get this straight > It doesn’t matter whether: > > 1. The enemy is “pointing a weapon at you.” > 2. Is aware of your existence. > 3. A direct threat to you. > 4. or a threat to other members of the military. No, it doesn’t. Do you understand what a war is? Ambushes and surprise attacks are nothing new. Just ask the Trojans. Odesio ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/325 "2010-04-08T21:45:09Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > It was blatantly obvious that they weren’t a threat because they weren’t walking around a certain way? So anything short of army crawls and they had to be left alone? Please, General, explain how you would have conducted a combat patrol in Iraq during the surge. No, it was blatantly obvious that they weren’t a threat because they were all stood around talking casually, in full view of anyone who might be approaching and without a weapon pointing at anything or anyone. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/326 "2010-04-08T21:51:28Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > No, it was blatantly obvious that they weren’t a threat because they were all stood around talking casually, in full view of anyone who might be approaching and without a weapon pointing at anything or anyone. Except when they pointed what looked to be an RPG in the direction of a ground patrol. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/327 "2010-04-08T21:57:33Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I believe an ambulance has to be explicitly marked, either with a red cross or (perhaps in this case) a red crescent. Some quick thoughts on the marked/unmarked thing. In the past, before there were optics like the guys in the helicopter had, I think a clearly marked ambulance was more important. E.g. in WWI when the vehicle was a mile a way and even with binoculars one couldn’t really make out what the vehicle was doing at the enemy line (taking away wounded? Or bringing in mustard gas canisters??) But it seems when the American helicopter crew can clearly see that the vehicle is there to aid and transport the wounded, perhaps a little understanding can be mustered that these irregulars (_really_ irregular in this case since it turns out that at least some of them were journalists) didn’t happen to have a nicely marked ambulance handy at that moment. Were the erstwhile rescuers in the van supposed to hastily paint a Red Crescent on the van before they moved in to attempt to extract the wounded? In no way am I trying to pick on you or start an argument, **Shodan**. These are merely some thoughts I had when I read your post. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/328 "2010-04-08T22:00:04Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Except when they pointed what looked to be an RPG in the direction of a ground patrol. Which someone familiar with RPG’s should have been able to recognise, had he been interested in verifying what he “thought” he was seeing and not just wanting to shoot up some bad guys to make up for all the shit they’d been taking. Go on, tell me that they didn’t have time to be using no zoom controls(Also, remember that they will have been seeing clearer footage than we have.) in such a life and death situation. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/329 "2010-04-08T22:09:05Z")
Zoom controls? Why don’t you describe for us exactly what that flight crew was able to see, seeing as how you have such intimate knowledge of the equipment they were using. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/330 "2010-04-08T22:12:15Z")
[QUOTE=ivan astikov] No, it was blatantly obvious that they weren’t a threat because they were all stood around talking casually, in full view of anyone who might be approaching and without a weapon pointing at anything or anyone. [/QUOTE] This may be ‘blatantly obvious’ to you, but surely you realize by now that it’s far from ‘blatantly obvious’ to others, no? As I already explained to you (and just like the clothing thing), the fact that they were walking and talking casually really is no indication that they were or weren’t insurgents. For one thing, they obviously didn’t think they were in the fire fight zone, so there wouldn’t be any need (since they didn’t have your foreknowledge about the helicopter watching them) for them to slink about at that point. For another, by slinking about instead of casually walking and talking, they would be painting a big sign saying ‘We are up to something!’ for anyone who spotted them but wasn’t observing them constantly. As for your last point, what do you think the guy peaking around the corner was doing, exactly? He was looking out to see if there was anything going on. Why would he be doing that if this was just a quiet neighborhood? The thing about ‘blatantly obvious’ is that it’s in the eyes of the beholder. To you, earlier, it was ‘blatantly obvious’ that insurgents would be wearing head scarfs and clothing with lots of pockets for holding lots of ammo (leaving aside that unconventional forces don’t like to nor try to get into long firefights, so they don’t really need lots of ammo). But this wasn’t obvious to to me…in fact, the opposite. It was stupid and really showed that you know next to nothing about this subject, to make such an assertion. Not only do you not seem to know much about the military, but you don’t seem to even know much about the fighting that has been going on for years now in Iraq and Afghanistan. I mean, it’s been in all the papers, ehe? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Jon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bb73d2/32.png) [@Evil\_Jon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Jon)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/331 "2010-04-08T22:21:44Z")
There are clearly weapons in the video. The ground forces recovered weapons after the incident (including an RPG). Why are people still arguing there weren’t??? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/332 "2010-04-08T22:22:40Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > ehe? > > -XT I thought **elucidator** told you to stop that! Now who isn’t listening? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/333 "2010-04-08T22:27:12Z")
[QUOTE=Evil Jon] There are clearly weapons in the video. The ground forces recovered weapons after the incident (including an RPG). Why are people still arguing there weren’t??? [/QUOTE] Because some of the people in this thread really don’t see them (and, to be honest, it’s hard to see and completely ambiguous…eyes of the beholder and all that), and some people don’t believe the military’s after action reports or the investigation into this incident…and to some, they don’t want there to have been any weapons, because deep inside, they know that if these guys were armed, it’s the deciding factor in the event. It means that, instead of the gunner being a loose cannon, out for blood and willing to lie in order to get it, instead what we have is a tragic accident. And to some, that is pretty difficult to swallow, so…they don’t. -XT ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/334 "2010-04-08T22:28:23Z")
[QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil] I thought elucidator told you to stop that! Now who isn’t listening? [/QUOTE] He did. Mostly, I’m tossing them in out of habit…but I also know how badly it annoys Hentor, so that’s always in the back of my mind as well… (I’m in a 12 step program though, so bear with me) -XT ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/335 "2010-04-08T22:30:10Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Zoom controls? Why don’t you describe for us exactly what that flight crew was able to see, seeing as how you have such intimate knowledge of the equipment they were using. No, why don’t you provide the evidence that they were incapable of doing such a thing? ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/336 "2010-04-08T22:32:18Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > No, why don’t you provide the evidence that they were incapable of doing such a thing? Why don’t you provide evidence that the Reuters employees weren’t actually Crab People? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/337 "2010-04-08T22:38:49Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Why don’t you provide evidence that the Reuters employees weren’t actually Crab People? If you are coming back with a zinger, try and make it funny, or at least comprehensible. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/338 "2010-04-08T22:43:04Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > If you are coming back with a zinger, try and make it funny, or at least comprehensible. If you’re going to post in Great Debates, brings some actual facts and reasoning to the debate, not conclusions you’ve jumped to based on your own biases. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/339 "2010-04-08T22:47:22Z")
Erm… Reuters spent two years trying to get at “the facts”, and only got the runaround. It took a whistleblower just to get this shoddy piece of footage. What extra “facts” do you expect posters to provide? ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/340 "2010-04-08T22:52:48Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Erm… Reuters spent two years trying to get at “the facts”, and only got the runaround.It took a whistleblower just to get this shoddy piece of footage. Yeah, and does the tape refute the narrative of “US soldiers make bad judgment call in Baghdad, civilians get killed?” In other words, you have no basis for your apparent belief that those civilians got killed solely because that Apache was crewed by bloodthirsty soldiers who lied in order to get permission to engage. You can’t prove that none of those civilians were armed, so the only counter you have is to argue “prove that they were armed.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047.md?page=18)