# US military WikiLeaks video release **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 5, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047 "2010-04-05T17:37:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/341 "2010-04-08T23:18:51Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Because some of the people in this thread really don’t see them (and, to be honest, it’s hard to see and completely ambiguous…eyes of the beholder and all that), and some people don’t believe the military’s after action reports or the investigation into this incident…and to some, they don’t want there to have been any weapons, because deep inside, they know that if these guys were armed, it’s the deciding factor in the event. It means that, instead of the gunner being a loose cannon, out for blood and willing to lie in order to get it, instead what we have is a tragic accident. And to some, that is pretty difficult to swallow, so…they don’t. > > -XT This is pretty much it for me, too. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/342 "2010-04-09T00:21:24Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > What can I say Gonzo? As always, you bring so much to any thread you deign to reply to. You have my profound thanks for once again bringing so much to the discussion, and leading it into new and unexpected pathways… > > -XT Unlike you who have the ability to pontificate about events you have little knowledge of and pretend you do, i have to rely on interviews and reactions from news crews who were in the area They were talking to people there and recording their reactions. Unlike you ,I am not making it up, simply relating the local reactions to the event as the news crews presented it. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/343 "2010-04-09T00:24:29Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] Unlike you who have the ability to pontificate about events you have little knowledge of and pretend you do, i have to rely on interviews and reactions from news crews who were in the area They were talking to people there and recording their reactions. Unlike you ,I am not making it up, simply relating the local reactions to the event as the news crews presented it. [/QUOTE] Unlike you, I really said the things I said I, um, said. Could you tell me the post number where you linked to and quoted the reactions of the news crews, or the local reaction to the event? All you have to do is say ‘post #’ and give the number…no other response is required of you, since I know how distasteful replying to me can be for you. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/344 "2010-04-09T00:56:14Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Unlike you who have the ability to pontificate about events you have little knowledge of and pretend you do, i have to rely on interviews and reactions from news crews who were in the area They were talking to people there and recording their reactions. Unlike you ,I am not making it up, simply relating the local reactions to the event as the news crews presented it. The only two news guys with direct knowledge are dead. That leaves us with the chopper pilots testimony, the video with its potential editing issues, and other information from the military that has been posted to this thread. If there is more data out there that you know of - please share it! ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/345 "2010-04-09T01:40:43Z")
> [@Evil\_Jon](#): > > I think some people in this thread are so blinded by rage that they cannot see the weapons that are clearly in the video. > > The question you should be arguing over is if it’s ok to shoot a group of people if only 3 of them are armed. > > I say yes. Could you put a figure on what’s the kill radius for that? I mean, let’s say a couple presumed militia men with what may be interpreted as arms walk down a street, what’s the distance unarmed people should be from them to avoid a summary execution from their liberators? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/346 "2010-04-09T01:45:47Z")
[QUOTE=Ale] Could you put a figure on what’s the kill radius for that? I mean, let’s say a couple presumed militia men with what may be interpreted as arms walk down a street, what’s the distance unarmed people should be from them to avoid a summary execution from their liberators? [/QUOTE] Summary execution? Well, it depends really on whether or not you are still beating your wife. Plus, you need to factor in how many angels dance on the head of a scarecrow… -XT ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/347 "2010-04-09T01:49:12Z")
Might it not be instructive to look at the from another view, a view potentially much more important than an American message board? How would you sell this story of a tragic accident innocent of malign intentions to Iraqis? After all, they are the source of insurgency, and they are the people we are protecting from insurgency. What can we point to? Can we point to messages being passed to the effect that “Gee, guys, not so sure about this, maybe we ought to check this out further. Maybe get a bit closer, despite the fact that they may have an AK-47 or two, and we are but a mere Apache gunship, lightly armed…” Hmm, no, 'fraid not, nothing like that, nothing we can point to to say that Americans pledged to their protection are willing to take a risk to protect them from tragic accidents. Is there a hidden codicil in the agreement, that we protect them from everybody but us? We could point to the wounded man, I suppose. That part where the crewman is urging the wounded man to pick up a weapon, double dog dare you, go ahead, pick it up. At least that established a couple of points, that the wounded man has no weapon, and that the crewman was not going to shoot him! Well, not going to shoot him again, if you want to quibble over details. At least we can say he wasn’t going to shoot him any more than he already had been, some flesh wounds from a …30mm cannon, was it? Throws a pretty hefty slug, does it? Kind of thing you take when hunting tyrannosaur? Remarkable thing isn’t that he wasn’t crawling for a weapon, but that he was crawling at all… Can we point to a spotless history of excruciating care about when we open fire, and upon whom? Well, no, not from their point of view, I wouldn’t think so. We’ve been a bit sloppy, here and there, now and again. Very sloppy. No help for us, there. How about how we have treated people who break the bounds of civility and humanity, can we point to swift and sure retribution, with hard justice meted? Not from their point of view, perhaps, the Middle Eastern mindset is rather stern about these sorts of things. And they are not so stupid that they don’t know that the Blackwater murderers are most likely drinking good scotch and bragging about it, even as I type. Guess we really can’t go there, do any good. Maybe we could point out how somebody called an ambulance? Well, no, not so good a direction to take, seeing as how the only guy who arrived to help the wounded, we blew up his shit. And his daughters. We got footage of our soldiers running to get the children to aid, and God bless 'em, but even if we run it on an endless loop, its kinda thin, seeing as we are the people who shot them in the first place. Really, this is a toughy, maybe somebody has some good ideas about how to present this case to the Iraqis, that they may continue to admire us and fling bouquets in our path. About all thats left is giving them the old hard-headed realism stuff, about how war is hell and its a darn shame, but its not our fault, really, well, OK, maybe a little. Even if every corpse on that field was a sworn enemy of America, we have probably made a hundred times more enemies than we killed. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/348 "2010-04-09T02:33:41Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > The only two news guys with direct knowledge are dead. That leaves us with the chopper pilots testimony, the video with its potential editing issues, and other information from the military that has been posted to this thread. If there is more data out there that you know of - please share it! The view from the other side – you know, the bad guys: [**EXCLUSIVE: One Day After 2007 Attack, Witnesses Describe US Killings of Iraqi Civilians**](http://www.democracynow.org/2010/4/8/exclusive_witnesses_describe_deadly_2007_us) Lying scum I bet. Everyone one of them. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/349 "2010-04-09T02:41:51Z")
[QUOTE=Red’s Cite. Witness #2] The US forces, who call themselves “friendly” forces, were telling us on speakers that they were here to protect and help us. We heard those words very clearly… [/QUOTE] Well, there you go! We’re getting our message out! ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/350 "2010-04-09T03:59:46Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > Could you put a figure on what’s the kill radius for that? I mean, let’s say a couple presumed militia men with what may be interpreted as arms walk down a street, what’s the distance unarmed people should be from them to avoid a summary execution from their liberators? You mean like the apparent sane people that were not present on that street at that time? Where were all the _other_ happy, shiny people strolling armed about that portion of New Baghdad? All crouching in their homes, you say? Why? Was their combat in that area? > [@elucidator](#): > > Might it not be instructive to look at the from another view, a view potentially much more important than an American message board? How would you sell this story of a tragic accident innocent of malign intentions to Iraqis? After all, they are the source of insurgency, and they are the people we are protecting from insurgency. > > What can we point to? Can we point to messages being passed to the effect that “Gee, guys, not so sure about this, maybe we ought to check this out further. Maybe get a bit closer, despite the fact that they may have an AK-47 or two, and we are but a mere Apache gunship, lightly armed…” > > Hmm, no, 'fraid not, nothing like that, nothing we can point to to say that Americans pledged to their protection are willing to take a risk to protect them from tragic accidents. Is there a hidden codicil in the agreement, that we protect them from everybody but us? > > We could point to the wounded man, I suppose. That part where the crewman is urging the wounded man to pick up a weapon, double dog dare you, go ahead, pick it up. At least that established a couple of points, that the wounded man has no weapon, and that the crewman was not going to shoot him! Well, not going to shoot him again, if you want to quibble over details. At least we can say he wasn’t going to shoot him any more than he already had been, some flesh wounds from a …30mm cannon, was it? Throws a pretty hefty slug, does it? Kind of thing you take when hunting tyrannosaur? Remarkable thing isn’t that he wasn’t crawling for a weapon, but that he was crawling at all… > > Can we point to a spotless history of excruciating care about when we open fire, and upon whom? Well, no, not from their point of view, I wouldn’t think so. We’ve been a bit sloppy, here and there, now and again. Very sloppy. No help for us, there. > > How about how we have treated people who break the bounds of civility and humanity, can we point to swift and sure retribution, with hard justice meted? Not from their point of view, perhaps, the Middle Eastern mindset is rather stern about these sorts of things. And they are not so stupid that they don’t know that the Blackwater murderers are most likely drinking good scotch and bragging about it, even as I type. Guess we really can’t go there, do any good. > > Maybe we could point out how somebody called an ambulance? Well, no, not so good a direction to take, seeing as how the only guy who arrived to help the wounded, we blew up his shit. And his daughters. We got footage of our soldiers running to get the children to aid, and God bless 'em, but even if we run it on an endless loop, its kinda thin, seeing as we are the people who shot them in the first place. > > Really, this is a toughy, maybe somebody has some good ideas about how to present this case to the Iraqis, that they may continue to admire us and fling bouquets in our path. About all thats left is giving them the old hard-headed realism stuff, about how war is hell and its a darn shame, but its not our fault, really, well, OK, maybe a little. > > Even if every corpse on that field was a sworn enemy of America, we have probably made a hundred times more enemies than we killed. We don’t have the time during stressful “troop surge” actions against a lively insurgency to cautiously calculate those odds, sorry. > [@RedFury](#): > > The view from the other side – you know, the bad guys: > > [**EXCLUSIVE: One Day After 2007 Attack, Witnesses Describe US Killings of Iraqi Civilians**](http://www.democracynow.org/2010/4/8/exclusive_witnesses_describe_deadly_2007_us) > > Lying scum I bet. Everyone one of them. Yeah, 'cuz that’s what Americans are known for. Lying and blowing shit up. Historically, that’s just what we do man. Get used to it or DIE under our Nazi heel! ---
**Author:** ![Mbossa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@Mbossa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mbossa)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/351 "2010-04-09T04:06:01Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Yeah, 'cuz that’s what Americans are known for. Lying and blowing shit up. Historically, that’s just what we do man. Get used to it or DIE under our Nazi heel! Pretty much, yeah. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/352 "2010-04-09T04:20:42Z")
Well, then, no more Beyonce for you! ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/353 "2010-04-09T04:23:53Z")
> [@Mbossa](#): > > Pretty much, yeah. Yeah. Me too. Those bastards! Just kill, kill, kill all the time and I’m trying to have a drink with one of the fellas! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/354 "2010-04-09T04:31:59Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > The view from the other side – you know, the bad guys: > > [**EXCLUSIVE: One Day After 2007 Attack, Witnesses Describe US Killings of Iraqi Civilians**](http://www.democracynow.org/2010/4/8/exclusive_witnesses_describe_deadly_2007_us) > > Lying scum I bet. Everyone one of them. No, just as biased as any other eyewitness. I notice that they admit that two of the men were armed in the group - so that part of the military testimony is accurate. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/355 "2010-04-09T04:42:06Z")
The reporter you cite goes on to say that the presence of a Kalashnikov or even two was not particularly noteworthy in that neighborhood, at that time. > [@](#): > > …Every neighborhood in Baghdad organized its own protection force. And it was legal at the time for every household to own a Kalashnikov in Iraq, and every household I ever went to did. So the presence of two men, dangling at their sides Kalashnikovs, in a crowd of civilians who have no weapons at all, I mean, is absolutely no—I mean, it’s—the whole thing is ridiculous… You were probably going to mention that, but fell victim to keyboard fatigue. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/356 "2010-04-09T04:49:43Z")
I’ve pieced together several witnesses reports, and it looks like this… Wounded guy (“Go ahead, pick it up!”) crawled away. He was the guy lying in the rubble when the van drove up. They jumped out, picked him up, and loaded him in the van, and then the Apache lit it up. He crawled out of the van! He crawled all the way across the street, and thats when the American armored vehicle ran him over, cutting him in half. Now that’s a bad day. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/357 "2010-04-09T05:33:39Z")
That was supposed to be one of the journalists, as well, wasn’t it? He deserves a posthumous medal for toughest news reporter ever. Its impossible that the tank crew ran him over because there was still signs of life. Isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/358 "2010-04-09T08:36:08Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Yeah, 'cuz that’s what Americans are known for. Lying and blowing shit up. Historically, that’s just what we do man. Get used to it or DIE under our Nazi heel! Pretty much, yes. Oh, wait, you thought you were being _sarcastic_?:smack: ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/359 "2010-04-09T10:05:22Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Yeah, and does the tape refute the narrative of “US soldiers make bad judgment call in Baghdad, civilians get killed?” A “bad judgment call” is when you pick the wrong horse in a race, or go to a 50 Cent gig in a Stormtrooper’s uniform. They are not meant to end in the deaths of eleven civilians - yes, they were all civilian non-combatants, unless you have convincing evidence otherwise - and serious injuries to 2 children. > [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > In other words, you have no basis for your apparent belief that those civilians got killed solely because that Apache was crewed by bloodthirsty soldiers who lied in order to get permission to engage. You can’t prove that none of those civilians were armed, so the only counter you have is to argue “prove that they were armed.” (my underline) So, now you’re denying they misled their superiors to get permission to engage? Do you want too have a listen to the audio again, before you commit yourself? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/360 "2010-04-09T13:22:08Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > …We don’t have the time during stressful “troop surge” actions against a lively insurgency to cautiously calculate those odds, sorry… Hell, don’t tell me, tell them! So, you want to take the “hard-headed realist” approach? War is hell, tough shit, suck it up? Might work, I suppose. Would it work for you? Probably wouldn’t work for me, but maybe I’m not as cooly objective as you are. Think they are? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047.md?page=19)