# US military WikiLeaks video release **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 5, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047 "2010-04-05T17:37:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![busterpickle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@busterpickle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/busterpickle)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/441 "2010-04-15T02:23:25Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > But I _guarantee_ you we’ll try, and that’s all I can promise you. Someday, you’ll stop lacing up your boots and become a civilian. Maybe you’ll give us a hand. Lord knows, we can use it. > > Thank you for your service. Home safe, God willing. In about 100 days or so I’ll be a civilian again. Can’t wait. Despite the fact that I find it beneficial for people to watch this video to know what war is actually about and how it happens on a day-to-day basis. It is in fact situations like this that provoke me to get out. There are also a lot of videos like this that have been leaked via flight crews and pilots on the internet. This one is negative for obvious reasons that are currently being discussed. However, I strongly urge people to look at those other videos where there were in fact actual, real, and ultimately verified insurgents. The reason being that you will see the uncanny similarities between an IED and a camera bag. An actual weapon and defensive/offensive behavior versus whatever they had on and their behavior. How an unknown vehicle pulling up in a situation like this can spell disaster. And then, you will understand their initial reaction/judgement. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/442 "2010-04-15T02:38:32Z")
> [@electronbee](#): > > Welcome to war people. This is what it is. How or why did you think it would be any different? Oh no, wait, its just like the movies where everything is clearly defined like a video game! > > Although I am in the military right now, I am glad this video is out so people can see a real scenario pan out and see what our guys are dealing with on a daily basis. How decisions are made and the following fall-out. I just feel bad for those pilots and the guy who made the call to shoot. > > But, I watched the video and, given a REAL-TIME situation, in a WAR ZONE, with KNOWN INSURGENT ACTIVITY, I can clearly see why. In the beginning of the video, I can see what I would clearly identify as weapons. No question. I also see two guys walking around with black bags, maybe some IEDs to take out some HUMVs or a market? And, around 2:47 (or so) I clearly see a guy with a fairly large object, kneeling behind the building, looking in the direction of the helicopter. Which I can easily see being misconstrued as someone ready to fire a RPG or similar device at me, in the helicopter, and taking cover via the corner of that said building. I could go on and on as others have but given the same situation I would have reported the same. You have to “live in the moment” of the recording, realize that there is a very high chance that someone will fire something at you, and you will then die. Now, look at the objects, and tell me that they do not look like weapons. > > But, also, situational awareness? I mean, people just got lit up by a 30mm and you are going to go towards that area? Really? So, if you were in a “bad part of town” and heard gun shots, your first reaction is to run right in there, right? I dunno about you but, fuck them, I am going in the opposite direction. > > [snip] > > Get involved in public policy and pay attention to what the government is doing overseas? Stop us from interfering in other cultures? Oh, no, wait, everyone is an expert and “we” all know what is best for everyone. Time to start voting for people who don’t want to interfere with other countries. > > Have a problem? Join up and make us better! Oh, wait, you DON’T want to do that. Or, maybe vote people out of office who support war. Not the military itself but the actual act of war. No, didn’t do that either, huh? …what military are you in? My country (New Zealand) actively opposed this war. We did not participate in this war. We voted against this war. When the time came to help the Iraqi people we did send in soldier to help rebuild the country. I did my part and did what you suggest I do. What do you say to the people of other countries who have done what you have asked us to do? What do you suggest the people of Iraq who oppose “America interfering in other countries” do? What should they have done in 2003? Would you consider that the British military would have engaged this target? How about the New Zealand Army, or the Australian? Was this shooting a result of the more relaxed ROE used on occasion by US soldiers? Is this how you successfully spread freedom and democracy? It is galling to be constantly told that “this is what war is like: this isn’t a video game.” This was a civilian area in the capital city of a country occupied by a United States led coalition that happened to have hosted a firefight this day. I know that war isn’t a video game. This is why I never supported the Iraq war. As can be seen on video filmed the next day: the area is no longer, as you would describe it, a warzone. In that video you see a camera crew surrounded by people and a helicopter buzzing in the distance. For you and others to second guess the actions of the men who tried to rescue people is upsetting. In April of 2007 Baghdad was still only averaging 5.8 hours of electricity per day. 12000 of the pre-war total of 32000 Iraqi doctors had left the country. 2000 doctors had been murdered and 250 had been kidnapped. With a broken infrastructure, no power, less than half the amount of treated water (compared to pre-war) and war practically on the back-steps of your house, I am astonished that anyone would be surprised that the first responder in an incident like this would be a person who lives down the road in a van with his kids. Saleh Mutashar, like thousands of other Iraqi’s who charged into life threatening situations like this one in the thousands of similar incidents since the war began to help out the injured, was a hero. This was not a war, it was an occupation. And occupations do not need to be as ugly as this. If this was an isolated incident, I might have felt a little bit differently about what happened here. But it wasn’t. We have documented cases going back to the invasion that follow the exact same pattern of this incident: I do not trust Centcom to be able to investigate these incidents with any kind of impartial rigor. > [@](#): > > Also, a lot of people are relating their civilian lives to what just happened. Yeah, being someone who came in at 27, the military existence is not at all like the civilian existence. There are some parallels but it is a totally different society. I think taking hindsight, a lack of military experience, and being a sea-lawyer, is the reason why so many people are unable to understand the video. How much experience do you have as an Iraqi civilian? Can you begin to see this video from the perspective of the Iraqis? If you were an Iraqi civilian, how would you view the video? ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/443 "2010-04-15T04:59:16Z")
> [@electronbee](#): > > Welcome to war people. This is what it is.Get involved in public policy and pay attention to what the government is doing overseas? Stop us from interfering in other cultures? Oh, no, wait, everyone is an expert and “we” all know what is best for everyone. Time to start voting for people who don’t want to interfere with other countries. > > Have a problem? Join up and make us better! Oh, wait, you DON’T want to do that. Or, maybe vote people out of office who support war. Not the military itself but the actual act of war. No, didn’t do that either, huh? Our current president said he would end the war… He lied. So you can’t go by campaign promises. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/444 "2010-04-15T05:17:19Z")
> [@Perciful](#): > > Our current president said he would end the war… He lied. So you can’t go by campaign promises. Not exactly. I mean the saying he’d end the war part, not the lying bit. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/445 "2010-04-15T05:29:38Z")
[QUOTE= ivan astikov] The biggest crime is that they tried to pass off this incident as if there was no wrong-doing whatsoever, and would have kept this evidence from the world, but for a whistleblower’s actions. [/QUOTE] > [@Algher](#): > > Except that they held an investigation. The results of that were that the Military investigation did not find that a crime had been committed. The problem Algher is that they satisfied the legal requirements of the service by finding any crime had been committed. How ever they did not realize that they were also fighting a public relations war at the same time. I found that some of the blogs on the new york times, written by people that have been over there are critical of the Military for not releasing the FOIA request. They had the perfect oppurtunity to take Reuters out behind the woodshed, and remind them of why its a really good idea to let the military know that they have people in a particular neighborhood or region. It may simply be the TV news folks that I have seen have been wearing those flak jackets that say press on them, but did I see one of these jackets being worn, by a press team that was embedded or having really good luck to be on the scene with the fight going on, nope. My bottom line is that someone in the pentagon screwed the pooch by not releasing the video when requested and blew something out of proportion, which got picked up by other folks looking for the next my lai. Declan ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/446 "2010-04-15T06:40:19Z")
Well, I suppose, if you think what this was about was two reporters. I don’t, I think it is about American soldiers opening fire without being that sure who they were blowing away. I can look at suspicious silhouettes all day, and still not see a man hit with 30mm fire crawling on the ground as a threat. How can we expect the Iraqi people to look at this and think that the Americans hold their lives in as much esteem as our own? Well, they won’t, will they, because we don’t, do we? So, when we say we are there to protect them, what we really mean is that we are there to protect ourselves and them so long as its not a problem. If our troops have to take on an additional risk to preserve their lives, its adios, motherfucker. And we have to have peace, or we can’t leave. If we start withdrawing and the situation is still hostile, and the government still shaky, thats one bad thing. But the other is if we are withdrawing, at some point we’ll be mostly withdrawn and what troops we have there will be utterly outnumbered! Outnumbered to a point where sheer firepower ain’t gonna cut it, unless and even if we apply it with gross and brutal force. Which would be a very bad thing. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/447 "2010-04-15T11:34:10Z")
> [@CoolHandCox](#): > > Do you think there is anything in that video that a military would not want their enemy to see? For example…our ROE at the time (“pick up the weapon”)? Technology the enemy may not know existed? How the relay of communications worked? I’m just guessing, but anything like that? Would knowing any of that stuff benefit an enemy? > > I’m trying to determine any possible reasons for not releasing the video after it was requested. I do believe that the video was originally deemed classified, so therefore exempt from release even under FOIA. There may be a statute of limitations in that, I don’t know. I’d imagine all recorded video of combat operations is classified initially until it can be determined if important strategic/tactical/communication can be gleaned from it. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/448 "2010-04-15T11:41:25Z")
Is there any information on how long the footage would have been originally? I couldn’t make out if there was a clock running on the 40 minute footage I saw, but it did seem to have some breaks in continuity. ---
**Author:** ![LIONsob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/76d3ee/32.png) [@LIONsob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LIONsob)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/449 "2010-04-22T17:27:57Z")
Here is a interesting article in Wired magazine, its a first person account from a US soldier who was there and carried the chrildren who were in the van while the Apache Gunship shot it up to medical aid. > **[U.S. Soldier on 2007 Apache Attack: What I Saw](https://www.wired.com/2010/04/2007-iraq-apache-attack-as-seen-from-the-ground/)** > > Ethan McCord had just returned from dropping his children at school earlier this month, when he turned on the TV news to see grainy black-and-white video footage of a soldier running from a bombed-out van with a child in his arms. It was a scene that... ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/450 "2010-04-22T17:38:51Z")
> [@LIONsob](#): > > Here is a interesting article in Wired magazine, its a first person account from a US soldier who was there and carried the chrildren who were in the van while the Apache Gunship shot it up to medical aid. > [http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/04/2007-iraq-apache-attack-as-seen-from-the-ground/#ixzz0lkAal3bN](http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/04/2007-iraq-apache-attack-as-seen-from-the-ground/#ixzz0lkAal3bN) Good article - thanks for the link. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/451 "2010-04-22T18:32:38Z")
Interesting article. Thanks for posting it. I doubt it’s going to change many minds, but good to hear the thoughts of someone who was actually there. -XT ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/452 "2010-04-22T20:21:04Z")
From the link upthread. > [@](#): > > There’s no easy way to kill somebody. You don’t just take somebody’s life and then go on about your business for the rest of the day. I can’t imagine many much easier ways than shooting them from a helicopter which isn’t even under fire, from 2km away. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/453 "2010-04-23T10:29:50Z")
We know you have empathy issues, Ivan. Or you probably would feel different about stealing. Most human beings feel differently than you do. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/454 "2010-04-23T10:38:21Z")
Pardon me if my empathy doesn’t lie with the feelings of members of the most well funded military on the planet, in this instance. If you want to give them a pass, just because “they were only doing their job”, knock yourself out, fella. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/455 "2010-04-23T12:07:42Z")
Why should anyone feel empathy for the soldiers of an occupying army in a conquered nation, the members of an army of conquest? A conflict with a casualty rate grossly in their favor, at that. Hearing people talk about how self sacrificing and traumatized our soldiers are feels like I’m reading some account of a priest of the Inquisition, talking about how terribly traumatized he is by the screams of the people he tortures. Our soldiers aren’t nearly as bad off as the people they are killing. Nor do I think for one moment that most American soldiers are all that traumatized by killing Iraqis in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/456 "2010-04-23T13:26:29Z")
Der, it’s not about you feeling empathy for the soldier, in this case. It’s about the soldiers feeling empathy for the people they kill. Surprisingly, it happens, and one common way for people to deal with the feeling is to dehumanize them. Thus, you get a lot of crude talk about the enemy, because if they didn’t, it’d be a lot harder to kill them. Of course, that might be better, all things considered, but these are soldiers who kill people, so you’re going to get the dehumanization of the enemy. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/457 "2010-04-23T13:30:44Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Der, it’s not about you feeling empathy for the soldier, in this case. It’s about the soldiers feeling empathy for the people they kill. Surprisingly, it happens, and one common way for people to deal with the feeling is to dehumanize them. Thus, you get a lot of crude talk about the enemy, because if they didn’t, it’d be a lot harder to kill them. > > Of course, that might be better, all things considered, but these are soldiers who kill people, so you’re going to get the dehumanization of the enemy. And you think that can just be switched on and off at will by soldiers? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/458 "2010-04-23T13:52:40Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Der, it’s not about you feeling empathy for the soldier, in this case. It’s about the soldiers feeling empathy for the people they kill. Surprisingly, it happens, and one common way for people to deal with the feeling is to dehumanize them. Thus, you get a lot of crude talk about the enemy, because if they didn’t, it’d be a lot harder to kill them. > > Of course, that might be better, all things considered, but these are soldiers who kill people, so you’re going to get the dehumanization of the enemy. That all presumes that they weren’t dehumanizing Iraqis and other foreigners before they started killing them. Or even joined the military. America as a whole tend to regard foreigners, especially non-Christian or dark skinned ones as cattle to be exploited or vermin to be exterminated. It’s not just the soldiers who don’t care how many Iraqis we’ve killed, or about the torture and general destruction for that matter; it’s most of America. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047/459 "2010-04-23T14:31:17Z")
That’s a monkeysphere issue, Der. People in general don’t care about ‘them over there’ so much. When you get into face to face contact, you _do_ care. (This is, by the way, why you get racists that hate (race) people _except_ for the guy who lives across the street.) Geez, I’d think you’d have learned some elementary social psychology by now. It really does help understand motivations and likely outcomes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-military-wikileaks-video-release/535047.md?page=22)