# US Navy talking about submarines. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 17, 2018, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-navy-talking-about-submarines/812592 "2018-04-17T18:09:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-navy-talking-about-submarines/812592/1 "2018-04-17T18:09:48Z")
Here is new about firing missiles from a USN submarine by the US Naval Institute. I thought the military policy was to never say anything about the silent service. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-navy-talking-about-submarines/812592/2 "2018-04-17T18:16:10Z")
[Link.](https://news.usni.org/2018/04/16/32965) ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-navy-talking-about-submarines/812592/3 "2018-04-17T18:19:02Z")
No. They definitely make routine announcements about submarines. For example, [here is an article about the commissioning of the USS _Colorado_ (SSN 788)](http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=104757). It contains some high-level details about the submarines’ design, armament, and capabilities, as well as the crew complement and the commanding officer. The Navy certainly takes steps to make sure that, when on patrol, the precise _locations_ of their submarines are kept secret, but that’s a far cry from “never say anything”. ETA: they even gave tours of the submarine to the public: > [@](#): > > After the ceremony, Colorado was opened up for tours to the general public, to include the crew’s mess, the wardroom, control, and the torpedo room. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-navy-talking-about-submarines/812592/4 "2018-04-17T18:37:41Z")
Based on the events of the past week, I can only come to the conclusion that the modern U.S. military thinks OPSEC is for squares. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-navy-talking-about-submarines/812592/5 "2018-04-17T18:41:29Z")
Yet I recall a similar cruise missile attack where a reporter asked if subs had launched, and the government spokesperson replied, “we don’t talk about submarines (activities?).” ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-navy-talking-about-submarines/812592/6 "2018-04-17T19:08:44Z")
My guess is that it was intentionally told about as a warning to other countries. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-navy-talking-about-submarines/812592/7 "2018-04-17T19:30:49Z")
Perhaps they were a more explicit about the platform launching the missiles this time because they wanted to tout the first combat use of a Virginia. I think you’d be well-served by reading this article: [http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/05/26/the-location-of-americas-nuclear-submarines-isnt-really-a-secret/](http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/05/26/the-location-of-americas-nuclear-submarines-isnt-really-a-secret/). It does a good job of explaining how we’re not actually as secretive about our submarines as the popular perception might indicate. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-navy-talking-about-submarines/812592/8 "2018-04-17T19:40:59Z")
Thanks, HurricaneDitka. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-navy-talking-about-submarines/812592/9 "2018-04-17T19:42:20Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Thanks, HurricaneDitka. You’re welcome. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-navy-talking-about-submarines/812592/10 "2018-04-17T20:48:04Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Perhaps they were a more explicit about the platform launching the missiles this time because they wanted to tout the first combat use of a Virginia. I think you’d be well-served by reading this article: [The Location of America’s Nuclear Submarines Isn’t Really a Secret – Foreign Policy](http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/05/26/the-location-of-americas-nuclear-submarines-isnt-really-a-secret/). It does a good job of explaining how we’re not actually as secretive about our submarines as the popular perception might indicate. Jeffrey Lewis is usually a fun read. I really liked this quote towards the end of the article: > [@](#): > > The academic literature on signaling is too complicated to fairly represent in a few paragraphs, but a basic point is that fundamental capabilities and interests tend to matter more to crisis outcomes than bluffing. To the extent that signals matter, they need to be costly to the one sending them. And my own observation is that the best stories told by practitioners about great moments in the history of nuclear signaling usually turn out to be based on fairly tendentious interpretations of historical events. **It would be nice to subject policymakers to the same data-driven scrutiny that has suggested that other traditional by-the-gut actors, like baseball managers or campaign gurus, tend to overstate their own impact on events.** (Emphasis added: If only the bolded occurred…) > > There is no reason to think the Trump administration is any more adroit at using military deployments to send signals than more competent White Houses. Which raises a thought — how about we stop trying to signal with forces and use words instead? Even [DDG-81](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Winston_S._Churchill) should agree that ‘Jaw, jaw is better than War, War.’ Nice that the [2.7 billion a copy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia-class_submarine#cite_note-2) _Virginia_s work as advertised. And I agree, that’s why they were even mentioned. “Look at our new toy! Isn’t it great!” Strange that the heaviest hitter, the _Ohio_ SSGN, _USS Georgia_, that was supposed to be lurking somewhere nearby (but now I see that [it’s actually back home just now at Kings Bay](https://www.facebook.com/submarinegroupten/posts/10155485005822135), didn’t participate. It alone can fire as many cruise missiles as the entire strike managed. I’m sure another one’s en route. Or maybe the Navy feels the _Truman_ group is enough? ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-navy-talking-about-submarines/812592/11 "2018-04-17T20:56:18Z")
From what I recall most of the crew don’t know where they are most of the time. Only the officers and a few others who need to know are aware of the sub’s location. The know what ocean they are in at first since they set out from their home port. ---
**Author:** ![Billdo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billdo/32/315_2.png) [@Billdo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billdo)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-navy-talking-about-submarines/812592/12 "2018-04-18T01:09:32Z")
Business Insider published an article, with many details, photos and videos, of a tour they took of the [USS John Warner](http://www.businessinsider.com/uss-john-warner-submarine-tour-2017-12). ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-navy-talking-about-submarines/812592/13 "2018-04-18T03:41:52Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > From what I recall most of the crew don’t know where they are most of the time. Only the officers and a few others who need to know are aware of the sub’s location. The know what ocean they are in at first since they set out from their home port. This is more or less true for ballistic missile submarines on strategic deterrent patrols. However, in general, this is not the case for fast attack submarines. For most missions, any sailor who’s interested can easily find out where the sub is just by wandering into the control room. Nevertheless, where a sub is at any one point isn’t particularly relevant to the average sailor’s life, any more than the exact location of a jet plane in flight is relevant to the average passenger. (What sailors and airplane passengers care about far more is how much longer the trip/deployment is going to last.) Your typical sailor is busy working, sleeping, working out, watching movies, etc. After a few months of this, you stop caring where you are in the ocean. It all looks pretty much the same inside a submarine. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-navy-talking-about-submarines/812592/14 "2018-04-18T04:51:55Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Based on the events of the past week, I can only come to the conclusion that the modern U.S. military thinks OPSEC is for squares. Russia and others were led to believe the two surface ships in the Mediterranean would be launching missiles. Russia threatened to sink one of them if it did launch. The reality is it was a sub in the Mediterranean, along with surface ships in the North Arabian Gulf and Red Sea that launched, catching everyone off-guard. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-navy-talking-about-submarines/812592/15 "2018-04-18T08:43:18Z")
> [@robby](#): > > Your typical sailor is busy working, sleeping, working out, watching movies, etc. After a few months of this, you stop caring where you are in the ocean. It all looks pretty much the same inside a submarine. True, but one would hope very little ocean is visible from inside a submarine. ---
**Author:** ![richw211](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@richw211](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/richw211)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-navy-talking-about-submarines/812592/16 "2018-04-18T18:11:00Z")
In the 80’s I was stationed on a fast attack submarine. We were told to not blab about many details, but they were explicit that we were not to talk about: Future ship’s movement - where we’ll be and when. Operations - what we did or will do. Presence of nuclear weapons onboard - We were allow to say that we were capable of carrying nukes, but we were not supposed to talk about them or say whether or not they were actually carried onboard. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-navy-talking-about-submarines/812592/17 "2018-04-18T18:27:59Z")
A guppy conversion WWII USN sub the Razorback is in the Arkansas River in North Little Rock. She was sold to Turkey and when too old for them, to the city. There is a replica nuclear torpedo in the rear torpedo room. Apparently they would shadow a ship or fleet during the Cold War, and if the balloon went up, fire and run like hell. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-navy-talking-about-submarines/812592/18 "2018-04-18T20:48:40Z")
From the Lewis link: > [@](#): > > Which raises a thought — how about we stop trying to signal with forces and use words instead? Because words are meaningles without force to back them up. The notion that diplomacy can always be achieved through reasonable people talking it out is a fantasy. It denies the reality that countries have serious differences in goals, philosophies, and claims on resources, and that all countries act in their own best interest. There are two ways to deal with that reality - you can offer carrots that are worth more than what you want the other country to give up, or you wave a big stick and promise to inflict harm that will outweigh the gain they get from ignoring you or doing what hurts you. Both types of negotiation are important, as are combinations. Free trade negotiations are an example of a win-win situation that can be negotiated with suitable treaties with no threat of force required. Dealing with hostile regimes who are making claims on the land or lives of you or your allies is an example of the latter, or at least a combination of both. Attempting to deal with a bad actor by offering carrots alone will soon find you with no more carrots and a bad actor with more resources to act badly with. See Obama’s disastrous Iran deal for an example. Or as Shakespeare said, once you pay the Danegeld, you never get rid of the Dane. North Korea is a perfect example of that - a country that periodically does something crazy and dangerous, then quiets down when diplomats agree to pay them to stop. This time, their bluster was met by even greater bluster, and their crazy was met with another type of crazy, and now they are in peace talks with South Korea. On the other hand, if you are primarily dealing with the world by waving your big stick around constantly, don’t expect to win a lot of hearts and minds. So as usual, selectivity and nuance are essential. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-navy-talking-about-submarines/812592/19 "2018-04-18T21:51:30Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Based on the events of the past week, I can only come to the conclusion that the modern U.S. military thinks OPSEC is for squares. This a thousand times over; contractors too. Case in point - Desert Storm II - We kill the #2 guy in Al-Qaeda (sp varies) for about the fifth time (being #2 was always a bad career decision). US spokesman, “Blah, blah, blah, #2 was killed today near \. US F-16 bombers using laser guided bombs assisted by special forces on the ground killed mrbaddude. He was located with the assistance of local residents. Computers and cell phones were recovered along with other documents and are being evaluated by intelligence forces.” Well, what’s wrong with that, you say. First - we killed the dude. He has meetings scheduled, couriers come to visit, he manages other folks. Shut up and monitor arrivals. Sure, they will bug out after seeing the hole in the ground but you’ll get a look at them. What was Al-Qaeda response to the briefing? They immediately confirmed his death so no one would show up; they could move to a new location, they could toss their existing phones. Second - we revealed the systems and methods used. Never do this. Say he was hit in the head by an accidental parachute airdrop. We revealed we had special forces in the area; they were using laser targeting, and locals were helping out (tough to be them in the future). Third - we revealed we recovered phones/computers/documents. No No NO. Much of the realtime value is lost. We could get contact information and locations if they get on the exploitation right away. Shit, that was out the window. Want to go - Hooray for us? Great, wait until the intelligence starts to grow stale then crow all you want. Contractor stuff. I’m (prior to retirement) peripherally working on a black project undergoing testing - almost ready for low-rate production. Mrbigshorts Inc., comes on CNN to announce that, “Our latest test of \ bigbulgingeye system was completely successful. All test objectives \ were accomplished. More PR blather about how this will enhance and extend, synergy, etc… on and on.” ON CNN. Then they took and answered questions!!! I wept. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2018, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-navy-talking-about-submarines/812592/20 "2018-04-18T22:02:54Z")
We were a couple years late getting Osama bin Whatwashisname because some idiot bragged that we were listening to his cell phone. Most of these things, it’s best if just we and the Russians know about them. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-navy-talking-about-submarines/812592.md?page=2)