# US non-religious heteros and same-sex marriage. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 9, 2004, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-non-religious-heteros-and-same-sex-marriage/278998 "2004-12-09T21:01:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-non-religious-heteros-and-same-sex-marriage/278998/81 "2004-12-14T17:01:51Z")
> [@GomiBoy](#): > > Gay couples want to have legal marriage in every sense of the word. They (and many others) do not see marriage as a religeous institution, … > > Religious people … see it as a corruption of the holy institution of marriage, … Many homosexuals are religious and do want to be part of the “Holy” institution. Furthermore a slowly growning number of churches do recognize that Gay folks can be just as married as straight folks. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-non-religious-heteros-and-same-sex-marriage/278998/82 "2004-12-14T20:56:34Z")
**Aldebaran** , thanks very much for the answer, with which I pretty much agree _in toto_. I do tend to get a trifle judgmental when someone starts in throwing terminology around – I ought to have known better. My apologies. > [@Homebrew](#): > > Many homosexuals are religious and do want to be part of the “Holy” institution. Furthermore a slowly growning number of churches do recognize that Gay folks can be just as married as straight folks. And some churches – few yet but growing – believe that it’s our responsibility before Christ to bless in His name the love that brings two people together, without attempting to classify and categorize it as humans are wont to do. I think I have a handle on the love that you and your wife shared – and while your sexuality and hers wouldn’t make that work as a marriage, it was quite real. And I sincerely hope that you find a husband whom you can love unreservedly – and that you’ll someday find a church that will honor that love and recognize it. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-non-religious-heteros-and-same-sex-marriage/278998/83 "2004-12-15T10:43:07Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > Many homosexuals are religious and do want to be part of the “Holy” institution. Furthermore a slowly growning number of churches do recognize that Gay folks can be just as married as straight folks. Fair point. I guess most of the gay folks I know are pretty anti-religious because they are kind of pissed off about how most religions see them, although I fully admit it’s not a representative sample. And I also see your point about many many churches liberalizing their stance towards homosexuality. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-non-religious-heteros-and-same-sex-marriage/278998/84 "2004-12-15T14:50:20Z")
> [@GomiBoy](#): > > Fair point. I guess most of the gay folks I know are pretty anti-religious because they are kind of pissed off about how most religions see them, although I fully admit it’s not a representative sample. And I also see your point about many many churches liberalizing their stance towards homosexuality. Hmmm… of the ones I’m personally acquainted with, IRL or via the Internet: Christian gay men – 7 Gay men alienated from Christian churches but believing in God – 3 Gay men atheist but with respect and insight into Christian tradition – 2 Neopagan gay men – 4 Atheist presumably anti-Christian gay men – 3 Christian gay women – 5 Neopagan gay woman – 1 Atheist gay women – 2 Granted my sample is slightly skewed by the fact that I myself am openly a liberal, gay-affirming Christian, I think it’s anecdotally evidentiary that belief and gay sexuality are by no means incompossible. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-non-religious-heteros-and-same-sex-marriage/278998/85 "2004-12-15T14:55:14Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Hmmm… of the ones I’m personally acquainted with, IRL or via the Internet: > > Christian gay men – 7 > Gay men alienated from Christian churches but believing in God – 3 > Gay men atheist but with respect and insight into Christian tradition – 2 > Neopagan gay men – 4 > Atheist presumably anti-Christian gay men – 3 > Christian gay women – 5 > Neopagan gay woman – 1 > Atheist gay women – 2 > > Granted my sample is slightly skewed by the fact that I myself am openly a liberal, gay-affirming Christian, I think it’s anecdotally evidentiary that belief and gay sexuality are by no means incompossible. Incidentally, **Poly** , which category did you have me in? My spiritual focus has fluctuated a few times since the last time I ever actually explicitly said anything detailed about my beliefs, so I just want to make sure I’m in the right box. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-non-religious-heteros-and-same-sex-marriage/278998/86 "2004-12-15T15:22:51Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Hmmm… of the ones I’m personally acquainted with, IRL or via the Internet: > > Christian gay men – 7 > Gay men alienated from Christian churches but believing in God – 3 > Gay men atheist but with respect and insight into Christian tradition – 2 > Neopagan gay men – 4 > Atheist presumably anti-Christian gay men – 3 > Christian gay women – 5 > Neopagan gay woman – 1 > Atheist gay women – 2 > > Granted my sample is slightly skewed by the fact that I myself am openly a liberal, gay-affirming Christian, I think it’s anecdotally evidentiary that belief and gay sexuality are by no means incompossible. I take your point; I never said they were incompatible, just to my mind kind of unlikely seeing as how so many religious leaders from various faiths openly and loudly decry homosexuality as a sin. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-non-religious-heteros-and-same-sex-marriage/278998/87 "2004-12-15T15:28:14Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Incidentally, **Poly** , which category did you have me in? My spiritual focus has fluctuated a few times since the last time I ever actually explicitly said anything detailed about my beliefs, so I just want to make sure I’m in the right box. 😃 With effort, I’m avoiding the horrible double-entendre available for punning in that post. I placed you in category #2, based on the last few Pizza Parlor posts you made that I read and the rare occasions you’ve mentioned your spirituality here, thinking you were probably there but might be in #1. Apropos nothing generally, but fitting the context of this thread, it would not be irenic but would be just for gay people and their supporters to regard the marriages of people who deny the validity of gay marriage on Christian grounds as themselves invalid – giving them a piece of Matthew 7:1-2, which they claim to believe is God’s Word. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-non-religious-heteros-and-same-sex-marriage/278998/88 "2004-12-15T15:43:37Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > With effort, I’m avoiding the horrible double-entendre available for punning in that post. 😃 > [@](#): > > I placed you in category #2, based on the last few Pizza Parlor posts you made that I read and the rare occasions you’ve mentioned your spirituality here, thinking you were probably there but might be in #1. Well, that _was_ over a year ago that I last posted over there. I’ve kind of swung back into agnosticism again. The only thing I’m sure of is that I’m not sure of anything. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-non-religious-heteros-and-same-sex-marriage/278998/89 "2004-12-15T15:52:56Z")
> [@Aldebaran](#): > > But you would have a problem with calling both civil marriage and religious marriage simply all the same “marriage”? > Why? > What is the marriage of people who marry without religious ceremony called today? Are they not “married”? > > Salaam. A Through common use, the term “marriage” has taken on a broader meaning. But that doesn’t mean it should continue to do so. I refer to religious “civil” unions as “marriage”. It gets to “own” the term because it was the “original” union. non-religious “civil” unions are just civil unions. Both should be protected and receive same federal tax benefits. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-non-religious-heteros-and-same-sex-marriage/278998/90 "2004-12-15T19:52:19Z")
> [@Aldebaran](#): > > **To those who by all means want to drag Islam (or even Islamic nations) into this:** > > 1. I did not mention in my OP that I was starting a comparitive study. You can always make a thread of your own if you want discussion the issue in such a context… My apologies, I thought I was talking to Aldebaran, the Islamic scholar, while apparently I was addressing an alien creature from Aldebaran star system, completely new to the ways of planet Earth. Talking to Aldebaran, the Islamic scholar, I’d say, “Why pretend you to know nothing about bigotry and religious hate, coming from culture where the calls to throw gays from tall buildings are sounded in the mosques all the time? Shouldn’t you rather inquire after how many Christian ministers find it in their hearts to embrace and support gay people?” Talking to a creature from Aldebaran star system, I’d say, “Yes, what you observe is true, many Christians still hate gays and discriminate against them. In that, many Christians still have a lot in common with followers of other religions. Once you travel to Muslim lands, you will observe that the calls to throw gays from tall buildings are sounded in the mosques all the time…” Feel better now? ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-non-religious-heteros-and-same-sex-marriage/278998/91 "2004-12-15T20:41:43Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > I refer to religious “civil” unions as “marriage”. It gets to “own” the term because it was the “original” union. Not really. All that was required for marriage for most of Western history was for two people to live together and declare that they were married. Using the Old Testament as an example, all that was required for marriage was the father of the girl to consent to the man asking and it was a done deal. No priest no religion. The Christian Church did not even have rites for marriage until about the ninth century, where were simply a blessing done after the marriage had been declared. It wasn’t a sacrament until 1493. Priests weren’t required for another 70 years. In Protestant England, Lord Hardwick’s Marriage Act of 1753 formalized and standardized marriage but form the most part poor people had common law marriages instead of more expensive, formal church weddings. [Here’s an interesting open letter](http://www.counterpunch.org/leupp12132003.html) from a Tufts University historian to Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney concering the history of same-sex marriage. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-non-religious-heteros-and-same-sex-marriage/278998.md?page=4)