# US Police operating Detention Blacksites? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 25, 2015, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577 "2015-02-25T11:43:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2015, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577/201 "2015-03-01T23:57:03Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Emphasis added. If you claim something is proven, how can you claim you haven’t said whether or not you believe it? Do you really doubt that attorneys have found that their clients are detained and held incommunicado? I have said no more than that. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2015, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577/202 "2015-03-01T23:59:00Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > US MSM covers US citizens protesting the issue in Chicago. No British Newspapers involved." Except that the protesters are citing the article in the Guardian as the reason for their protest. And the article you cited also quotes The Guardian story. But why wouldn’t US media cover a protest? It’s something that is known to actually be happening. But one thing you should keep in mind. I think everyone, everywhere in the world would be shocked, SHOCKED to find some corruption in the police force of a large city. Shocked, I tell you. Allegations are being investigated, and if and when an independent investigation proves the allegation to be correct, you’re not going to see a whole lot of folks here coming to the defense of the police. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2015, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577/203 "2015-03-01T23:59:57Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Is simply a snide reference to the U.S. with no indication that any failure to investigate the purported situation was the actual topic you wanted to discuss. > > Retroactive back-pedaling. 😉 Are you sure your attitude and posts are in line with your Mod status. It seems like you are encouraging a piling-on. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577/204 "2015-03-02T00:01:43Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Do you really doubt that attorneys have found that their clients are detained and held incommunicado?. I don’t doubt they claim that it happened. But you claimed that > [@Pjen](#): > > I do not and have not said that I believe the Guardian article. One of the allegations in the article is that citizens are being detained and held incommunicado. If you think that has been proven, then I’m unclear as to why you wouldn’t believe it. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577/205 "2015-03-02T00:11:50Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Are you sure your attitude and posts are in line with your Mod status. Yes, he is sure. Mods are allowed to post as regular posters here. It’s apparent when **tomndebb** is posting as a mod because he leads the post with the title, “Moderating”, and end the post with [/moderating]. When he does not do that, he is posting as a regular poster, and you are free to attempt to argue with his comments in those posts. And if you think that you are getting piled on due solely to **tom~** leading the charge, you’ve got another think coming. You’re getting piled on because your arguments are poor. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577/206 "2015-03-02T00:20:47Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > My exact wording of the OP: > > "This article alleges that Chicago police maintain an off-the-books detention centre that has resulted in serious harm and death of detainees with no constitutional protection. > > It cites it as an extension of the toleration of torture, illegalities and human rights contravention given to the military and CIA, arguing that the militarisation of the police is not only of weaponry, but also of attitude and procedures." > > Calm, simple, unbiased statement of what was reported in the article. No emotion. No indication of my feelings on the matter. > > And then without comment I posted the CPD denial. > > I think you are assuming more than I actually posted. > [@Pjen](#): > > Possibility yes. Citing it as fact, no. Wanting to debate reasonable response, yes. You’ve quoted my post and responded twice. Not sure why that was necessary. You brought up the subject as worthy of debate. Therefore, it’s your job to prove it exists if the other side says “it’s a fairy story”. If you’re not willing to do that, I don’t see why anyone should be willing to debate you. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577/207 "2015-03-02T00:22:53Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Are you sure your attitude and posts are in line with your Mod status. It seems like you are encouraging a piling-on. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577/208 "2015-03-02T01:22:59Z")
Any further posts on this thread would probably be improved by reading its sister thread at “UK Border Force runs “Interment Sites” for Asylum Seekers?” which contains some pertinent points about criticism of state authority. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=18173298&posted=1#post18173298](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=18173298&posted=1#post18173298) ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577/209 "2015-03-02T01:44:36Z")
“Improved?” There doesn’t really seem to be a point to that thread, either. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577/210 "2015-03-02T01:48:59Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Any further posts on this thread would probably be improved by reading its sister thread at “UK Border Force runs “Interment Sites” for Asylum Seekers?” which contains some pertinent points about criticism of state authority. > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=18173298&posted=1#post18173298](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=18173298&posted=1#post18173298) Yeah, because this MB is full of people who shy away from criticizing state authority. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577/211 "2015-03-02T01:54:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yeah, because this MB is full of people who shy away from criticizing state authority. :rolleyes: Not saying that, but pointing out that if it comes from outside it is easy to take offence rather than notice! ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577/212 "2015-03-02T02:03:30Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Any further posts on this thread would probably be improved by reading its sister thread at “UK Border Force runs “Interment Sites” for Asylum Seekers?” which contains some pertinent points about criticism of state authority. > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=18173298&posted=1#post18173298](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=18173298&posted=1#post18173298) I’m actually insulted by this post (or would be, if I cared). I think I ( and **Martin Hyde** in particular, and some others) went above and beyond researching and expanding on a poorly developed and unproven “debate” question. Even the title is undeveloped; as noted, there is no such thing as “US Police”. Did you do any research before posting? Check for multiple sources, or the past history of this particular police force? Are you familiar with the city of Chicago beyond it’s geographic location in the US? Think to develop a larger question to frame the discussion into something debatable? As it was written, the OP should have been posted in IMHO, if at all. There are a lot of posters from the Chicago area here who might have insight for you. If you simply want to vent about abuse of authority in general, there is the Pit for that. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577/213 "2015-03-02T02:59:33Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > US MSM covers US citizens protesting the issue in Chicago. No British Newspapers involved. > > [Activists protest alleged Chicago police 'black sites'](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/02/28/activists-protest-alleged-chicago-police-black-sites/24180197/) > > “Activists in Chicago gathered Saturday for a protest and march against alleged “black sites” in the city where police supposedly hold suspects and witnesses for long periods without public records and access to lawyers.” Did you miss this part? > [@](#): > > In an investigative report, The Guardian charges that the Chicago Police Department operates an off-the-books interrogation compound in Homan Square, rendering Americans unable to be found by family or attorneys while locked inside what lawyers told the paper is the domestic equivalent of a CIA black site. Police deny the claims. > > Yet in response to the paper’s reporting, a coalition of activists, including the hacktivist group Anonymous and organizers associated with the Black Lives Matter movement, held a protest Saturday afternoon dubbed “Shut Down Homan Square.” You see nothing circular here do you? 😛 I got about that far in before falling out of my chair in laughter. That you would link to this as some sort of vindication of your position (one you claimed in your last response to me isn’t supportive of the article or your OP) is really too rich. And…you…don’t…see…it. Gods, it’s hard for me to even write this without choking! (I encourage everyone to read the whole article…I’d have cut and pasted more by just doing that was making it difficult to breath with all the laughing) ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577/214 "2015-03-02T04:22:46Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Do you really doubt that attorneys have found that their clients are detained and held incommunicado? The doubt is not that this happened. It’s doubtful that there’s anything wrong with doing this. If you believe that, in Chicago, prisoners have a right to a lawyer at any time other than interrogation or trial, please cite the law that says so. **Martin Hyde** has already provided cites that it’s not against US Federal law to keep people locked up for many hours without a lawyer, and yet you repeat the uncited claim that this isn’t true. Why? Even some neutral cites would help, rather than anarchist, their defence lawyers, and left-wing shit-stirring newspapers. At the moment, this merits a small internal investigation, nothing more, and possibly a commitment to allowing somewhat quicker communication by prisoners where feasible. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577/215 "2015-03-02T04:50:51Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > And if you think that you are getting piled on due solely to **tom~** leading the charge, you’ve got another think coming. You’re getting piled on because your arguments are poor. I don’t believe you. There were no actual arguments presented. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577/216 "2015-03-02T04:56:55Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Any further posts on this thread would probably be improved by reading its sister thread at “UK Border Force runs “Interment Sites” for Asylum Seekers?” which contains some pertinent points about criticism of state authority. > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=18173298&posted=1#post18173298](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=18173298&posted=1#post18173298) How would reading a thread on an unrelated topic improve the mockery that is this one? The only way this can be improved is if you tell me what Michael Lind thinks of it. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577/217 "2015-03-02T14:36:33Z")
Wrong poster. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577/218 "2015-03-02T15:56:14Z")
Oh really? The lack of fleshed out OPs all blend together. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577/219 "2015-03-02T17:52:51Z")
I’d advise the conservative commentators here to be very cautious in saying there is nothing to this story about abuse of prisoners. Some of you said it about Abu Ghraib and it bit you in the ass. Some of you said it about CIA torture and it bit you in the ass. Some of you said it about CIA black sites and it bit you in the ass. Some of you said it about Gitmo and it bit you in the ass. Are you seeing a pattern here? Defending the US authorities where abuse is an issue is a dicey proposition at best. And as **Camille** keeps pointing out, the lawyers cited in the article ARE firsthand witnesses that they have been unable to obtain access to their clients. (You all keep ignoring **Camille’s** posts, I wonder why?) There is PLENTY of grounds for an investigation here. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577/220 "2015-03-02T18:28:58Z")
I don’t think anybody disputes that. The tone of the OP seems to be inviting us to assume that these allegations are true, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577.md?page=12)