# US Police operating Detention Blacksites? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 25, 2015, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577 "2015-02-25T11:43:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577/61 "2015-02-25T20:16:53Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Let us wait for 24 hours of the news cycle and see how it is covered in the States. NY Post has it up already, quoting The Guardian and the Chicago PD. Is it before or after the story about: [Miracle Baby Born Fully Encased in Giant Liquid-Filled Bubble](http://nypost.com/2015/02/25/miracle-baby-born-fully-encased-in-giant-liquid-filled-bubble/)? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577/62 "2015-02-25T20:20:32Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Is it before or after the story about: [Miracle Baby Born Fully Encased in Giant Liquid-Filled Bubble](http://nypost.com/2015/02/25/miracle-baby-born-fully-encased-in-giant-liquid-filled-bubble/)? That is true and such births do occur! ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577/63 "2015-02-25T20:26:53Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > That is true and such births do occur! Well sure, though it wasn’t a ‘Giant Liquid-Filled Bubble’ but an amniotic sac. I guess that COULD be a ‘Giant Liquid-Filled Bubble’ for some definitions of ‘Giant’ and ‘Bubble’ (I think we can all agree to give ‘Liquid-Filled’ a pass, right?). I’m pretty sure the woman who gave up Wall Street for Porn was real too. But your story doesn’t seem to be on the front page under the news section, not even after the ‘‘Mein Kampf’ to be published in Germany for first time since WWII’ or ‘Cherry tycoon kills himself amid drug raid on factory’ stories. I’m sure it will be there sometime though. Probably have their keen eyed reporters and editors dotting all the I’s and crossing all the T’s to make sure they have all the bases covered. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577/64 "2015-02-25T20:28:32Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > “This raises serious problems if attorneys are finding that people are arrested and then held incommunicado which is proven quite clearly in the various articles on the matter.” > > Even the Chicago police response admits that people were lost in the system for hours and their attorneys were not able to locate them. I don’t see that admission anywhere in the Tribune article you cited. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577/65 "2015-02-25T20:48:29Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Hyperbole rarely convinces. You owe me a new one of [these](http://s27.photobucket.com/user/JustinTyme7/media/Extreme-Irony_zpsj6ebefsj.gif.html). ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577/66 "2015-02-25T20:58:29Z")
With all due respect to the NATO Three - I’m sure they are just the best at being revolutionaries, and their iPods are probably filled with the best dubstep that their coop has to share – can someone answer a legal question for me? If I am arrested, and I ask for a lawyer, is there a guideline of how quickly the lawyer must be able to see me? Surely if I’m in the middle of some kind of inprocessing, the police wouldn’t have to stop that immediately. And surely the questioning would have to stop when I request a lawyer. But is there some law on how promptly my demand must be satisified? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577/67 "2015-02-25T21:15:22Z")
[QUOTE=Ravenman] If I am arrested, and I ask for a lawyer, is there a guideline of how quickly the lawyer must be able to see me? Surely if I’m in the middle of some kind of inprocessing, the police wouldn’t have to stop that immediately. And surely the questioning would have to stop when I request a lawyer. But is there some law on how promptly my demand must be satisified? [/QUOTE] I’m not a lawyer nor do I play one on the SDMB, but I think it’s something along [these](http://www.lawsociety.ab.ca/public/legal_education/arrested_charged.aspx) lines: > [@](#): > > You have the right to talk to a lawyer > > If you are arrested or detained by the police, you have the right to “retain and instruct counsel”. This means you have the right to talk to a lawyer without delay. You should be provided with privacy, a phone, and appropriate phone books to contact a lawyer. > > Many lawyers are available to provide emergency telephone consultations free of charge, and many criminal lawyers are prepared to provide initial consultations free of charge or for a nominal fee. > > If you can afford a lawyer but do not know one, contact the Lawyer Referral Service at 1-800-661-1095 for names and phone numbers of three lawyers. > > If you cannot afford a lawyer, telephone the nearest Legal Aid office. Legal Aid can give you names and phone numbers of lawyers who will do work for the financially needy. If you are in a remand center, psychiatric institution, or correctional facility, arrange with the staff at the institution to see a Legal Aid officer to complete an application form. Without delay and as soon as possible. I THINK this means you should be provided with a phone, at a minimum to contact a lawyer once you are in custody, and the whole if you don’t have a lawyer one will be appointed bit. So, assuming these folks were arrested and booked and then not provided the means to contact a lawyer in a timely fashion then it’s a real issue. But, like I said, I am not a lawyer so maybe Bricker or one of those guys will weigh in with the sometimes murky law stuff with a definitive answer. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577/68 "2015-02-25T21:28:38Z")
Thanks, but you did notice that’s a Canadian website, right? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577/69 "2015-02-25T21:31:05Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I’m not a lawyer nor do I play one on the SDMB, but I think it’s something along [these](http://www.lawsociety.ab.ca/public/legal_education/arrested_charged.aspx) lines: > > Without delay and as soon as possible. I THINK this means you should be provided with a phone, at a minimum to contact a lawyer once you are in custody, and the whole if you don’t have a lawyer one will be appointed bit. So, assuming these folks were arrested and booked and then not provided the means to contact a lawyer in a timely fashion then it’s a real issue. But, like I said, I am not a lawyer so maybe Bricker or one of those guys will weigh in with the sometimes murky law stuff with a definitive answer. I wasn’t aware that the state was referred to as “The Crown.” Edit: Ninja’d! ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577/70 "2015-02-25T21:37:42Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Thanks, but you did notice that’s a Canadian website, right? :smack: Nope. Oh well, that’s what I get for not reading through it fully and just picking out the parts I thought were answering the question. I am now going to go back and read that article on the woman who gave up Wall Street for Porn much more carefully… ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577/71 "2015-02-25T21:37:58Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Thanks, but you did notice that’s a Canadian website, right? To answer your original question, you have a constitutional right to an attorney during questioning. You do not have a right to an attorney to sit with you during the booking process or while you are waiting for arraignment or transport or any of the myriad of administrative details that pop up. Martin Hyde explained it pretty well in post #29. I know of no bright line as to when you must be allowed to contact an attorney when not being questioned. Most likely there are 50 different laws, case law and guidelines for it. Or if there is a bright line case I welcome the education from someone. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577/72 "2015-02-25T21:38:34Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > It will be interesting to see what view the NY Times and others cover now that the story has been broken. And if nothing much comes of it, and there doesn’t seem to be anything beyond unsubstantiated rumors, is that an indication that the whole thing is BS, or that the NY Times is part of the conspiracy? Inquiring minds want to know! Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577/73 "2015-02-25T21:45:42Z")
Looks like [a couple of civil rights activists think it at least merits investigation](http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/the-disappeared-chicago-police-detain-americans-at-abuse-laden-black-site/ar-BBhVkfd). ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577/74 "2015-02-25T21:46:57Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Looks like [a couple of civil rights activists think it at least merits investigation](http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/the-disappeared-chicago-police-detain-americans-at-abuse-laden-black-site/ar-BBhVkfd). That is a reprint of something already posted in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577/75 "2015-02-25T22:28:03Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > But that would be ad hominem which is the admission of having no real argument. An ad hominem is an argument, just a fallacious one. Mockery is not an argument - though in this case it’s pretty amusing. If a person comes into a room during a party, drops their pants, takes a dump on the floor, and proceeds to yell as loud as they can that parts of Jupiter are emanating from their body, people aren’t going to really argue with them. They may mock them though. * * * It is an interesting question how long a person can be detained/arrested without access to a lawyer. In most states, you can only be detained up to 72 hours without charges being filed (48 in CA I believe), but this says nothing about when a lawyer must be provided. Of course during questioning, and other steps yes. But what if you are simply held without being charged, or questioned - can you be deprived of the ability to speak with a lawyer for those same 48 or 72 hours? I dont know. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577/76 "2015-02-25T22:43:58Z")
Yes, pretty much, unless you’ve been charged. It is interrogation that triggers the Fifth Amendment right to counsel, and “critical stages of prosecution” that trigger the Sixth Amendment one. Just being in the jailhouse doesn’t trigger anything, at least not under the Federal Constitution. Most states law constitutional or statutory provisions requiring access to counsel during detention though. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577/77 "2015-02-25T22:51:14Z")
How many times do we have to ask the OP what the debate is??? **OP: What is the debate???** You posted this in GD, but gave no indication of what you wanted to debate. And you wonder why people are treating this like a joke… ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577/78 "2015-02-25T23:19:22Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > How many times do we have to ask the OP what the debate is??? > > **OP: What is the debate???** > > You posted this in GD, but gave no indication of what you wanted to debate. And you wonder why people are treating this like a joke… Pick One: [ul] [li] **US Police: Bad or Very Bad?** [/li][/ul] [ul] [li] **Resolved: The US Sucks** [/li][/ul] **Or** , the question posed in the OP Title: [ul] [li] **US Police operating Detention Blacksites?** [/li][/ul] Review: > [@Pjen](#): > > [The disappeared: Chicago police detain Americans at abuse-laden 'black site' | Chicago | The Guardian](http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/24/chicago-police-detain-americans-black-site) > > This article\*\* alleges\*\* that Chicago police maintain an off-the-books detention centre that has resulted in serious harm and death of detainees with no constitutional protection. > > It cites it as an extension of the toleration of torture, illegalities and human rights contravention given to the military and CIA, arguing that the militarisation of the police is not only of weaponry, but also of attitude and procedures. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577/79 "2015-02-25T23:32:48Z")
Just to add my two cents, I second the idea that **Martin Hyde** (post #29) gives us a good rationale as to why the allegation might be baseless. I will note that he also adds that nothing the Chicago Police would do would be surprising. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577/80 "2015-02-25T23:40:29Z")
> [@camille](#): > > Pick One: > > [ul] > [li] **US Police: Bad or Very Bad?** [/li][/ul] > > [ul] > [li] **Resolved: The US Sucks** [/li][/ul] Yeah, that’s about right. > [@](#): > > **Or** , the question posed in the OP Title: That’s a factual question that can only be answered by an investigation. It’s not a debate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-operating-detention-blacksites/713577.md?page=5)