# US Police pulling you out of a vehicle; not a conspiracy theory. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 11, 2015, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-pulling-you-out-of-a-vehicle-not-a-conspiracy-theory/734319 "2015-10-11T17:46:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-pulling-you-out-of-a-vehicle-not-a-conspiracy-theory/734319/1 "2015-10-11T17:46:20Z")
For some dang reason, just because I watched _ **one** _ stinkin’ video on the YouTube, I’m being flooded with sidebars to “watch the Police State,” “watch this wacko cop,” or “watch a defender of their rights!” To wit, I chalk up to very rare events where people had their cameras rolling with their encounters with police. I support the police–rough job, dealing with unknown people. But it begs a question. . . I saw one video where there was a random checkpoint on the highway. The driver, with a camera rolling, rolled his window down just an inch. When the officer asked him to roll the window down further, the driver said “No thanks, I can hear you just fine. . .” Hilarity ensues when the officer asks him to step out of the car to talk (but the camera keeps rolling). So, my question is this: Why would an officer ask a person to step out of a vehicle? Is it an order, and could I refuse it? Under what circumstances–taking the random checkpoint into account–could I say, ‘No thank you.’? I would ask **pkbites** or other police to jump in here for the rationale or reasonable answer on this one. Tripler Just curious, and do _not_ need an answer fast. ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-pulling-you-out-of-a-vehicle-not-a-conspiracy-theory/734319/2 "2015-10-11T17:54:15Z")
YOU personally, might smell particularly interesting to a police dog, beyond your enchanting musk. ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-pulling-you-out-of-a-vehicle-not-a-conspiracy-theory/734319/3 "2015-10-11T18:12:47Z")
> [@chacoguy](#): > > YOU personally, might smell particularly interesting to a police dog, beyond your enchanting musk. Oh I _do_ have an enchanting natural musk, comprising of garlic and onions, on account of my Slovak heritage. Mmmmm hmmmmmm. Tripler Good call with the potato pancakse, **chacoguy**! ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-pulling-you-out-of-a-vehicle-not-a-conspiracy-theory/734319/4 "2015-10-11T19:34:05Z")
> [@Tripler](#): > > So, my question is this: Why would an officer ask a person to step out of a vehicle? Is it an order, and could I refuse it? Under what circumstances–taking the random checkpoint into account–could I say, ‘No thank you.’? For one thing, border patrol stops are different than vehicle stops. For vehicle stops, officers can order you out of the car for a variety of reasons, or none at all depending on the state. SCOTUS cases Mimms is controlling for the driver, and Wilson v. Maryland is controlling for passengers. They both say that it is permissible to order the driver and passengers, respectively, out of the vehicle during traffic stops. Some states have enacted broader protections that require a reason to be present. If it is a lawful order, you can not decline to obey. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-pulling-you-out-of-a-vehicle-not-a-conspiracy-theory/734319/5 "2015-10-11T19:50:26Z")
You might smell like a brewery, giving them cause to find out if perhaps you’ve had a few too many. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-pulling-you-out-of-a-vehicle-not-a-conspiracy-theory/734319/6 "2015-10-12T00:15:41Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > If it is a lawful order, you can not decline to obey. That circles right back to the question here: “What’s a lawful order?” Is it up to the citizen to be in possession of the requisite acumen to determine that? If the police officer declares it to be lawful, does that by itself make it lawful, and if so, this is a tautology. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-pulling-you-out-of-a-vehicle-not-a-conspiracy-theory/734319/7 "2015-10-12T00:23:39Z")
There was a huge thread on this in GD when the Sandra Bland incident was being discussed. You can probably find the thread…it went back and forth for pages, but to me it seemed the consensus was that the police can order you from your car, legally. I found [this](http://www.hullstreetlaw.com/can-a-police-officer-order-everyone-out-of-the-vehicle-during-a-traffic-stop/) cite on a quick Google search but there are tons: > [@](#): > > Q. Can a police officer order everyone out of the vehicle during a traffic stop? > A. Yes. > > The Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution guarantees freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures. Generally, this rule is enforced by requiring police officers to obtain warrants in order to search or seize people. However, the Supreme Court of the United States has added many exceptions to the warrant requirement. Additionally, it has expanded the bounds of “reasonableness” in several areas where it has decided that a person’s right to privacy must be balanced with the fact that police officers have an inherently unsafe occupation. > > In the seminal case Terry v. Ohio, 392 US 1 (1968) the Court carved out an exception to the warrant requirement which allows officers to briefly detain people for investigative purposes when there is an reasonable articulable suspicion of criminal activity. These stops are known as “Terry Stops.” During these stops, if the officer has some reasonable articulable suspicion that the person may be armed and dangerous, the officer may perform a brief, over-the-clothes pat down of the person. This pat down is known as a “frisk.” > > In Arizona v. Johnson, 129 S. Ct. 781, 784 (2009), the court stated that once a law enforcement officer has conducted a valid traffic stop, the officer is justified in conducting a frisk of the person for weapons if the officer reasonably suspects that the person stopped is armed and dangerous. Id. Commonwealth v. Smith, 281 Va. 582, 589 (2011). > > \*n a traffic-stop setting, the first Terry condition — a lawful investigatory stop–is met whenever it is lawful for police to detain an automobile and its occupants pending inquiry into a vehicular violation. The police need not have, in addition, cause to believe any occupant of the vehicle is involved in criminal activity. To justify a patdown of the driver or a passenger during a traffic stop, however, just as in the case of a pedestrian reasonably suspected of criminal activity, the police must harbor reasonable suspicion that the person subjected to the frisk is armed and dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-pulling-you-out-of-a-vehicle-not-a-conspiracy-theory/734319/8 "2015-10-12T00:29:23Z")
The courts tend to hold that the citizen must obey the officer, and if the officer’s instructions are unlawful they can seek a remedy in court after the fact. The logic behind this is pretty straightforward. Nobody wants a world where an individual citizen has the right to resist a police officer just because they _think the officer might be wrong. It’s one of those ideas that sounds good at first (Well, of course you should_ be allowed to resist an unlawful order) but if everybody actually did so it would be anarchy. The courts also give WIIIIIIDE latitude to the officer when it comes to his own safety. Traffic stops are actually very dangerous for a police officer, and no jury in America would find it unreasonable for a cop to request you roll down your window so he can see whether you have a weapon. There have been many, many cases in which a person refused to remove their hands from their pockets, refused to turn around to face the officer, etc etc and the citizen ALWAYS loses. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-pulling-you-out-of-a-vehicle-not-a-conspiracy-theory/734319/9 "2015-10-12T02:27:42Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > That circles right back to the question here: “What’s a lawful order?” Is it up to the citizen to be in possession of the requisite acumen to determine that? If the police officer declares it to be lawful, does that by itself make it lawful, and if so, this is a tautology. The court decides if it is a lawful order. If you think it’s an unlawful order you’d best follow the instructions of the officer provided the order posses no immediate threat and settle your dispute in court. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-pulling-you-out-of-a-vehicle-not-a-conspiracy-theory/734319/10 "2015-10-12T02:36:19Z")
> [@Tripler](#): > > I would ask **pkbites** or other police to jump in here for the rationale or reasonable answer on this one. This has pretty much been answered. We don’t have any kind of check points here so I’m not going to address them. As far as other stops involved, as answered, yes, you do have to get out if I order you out. As do all other occupants of your vehicle. I typically don’t have people get out of a vehicle unless I have reason to. During a stop there is liability attached. You’re safer in your car than out. If I get you out of your vehicle and you fall down and crack your head or are struck by a vehicle that just makes things difficult for me. This is one reason I don’t let people get out and see the reading on a radar/laser gun (no, you do not have a right to see it!:rolleyes:). Also, it’s harder for someone to assault me if they are sitting in a vehicle. All in all it’s a control position for me and I’m not giving it up if I don’t have to. But sometimes I do need people to get out of their vehicle. And if I want you out, yes, legally you have to get out. You can get out like a man when I tell you to, or come out like a baby when I spray OC into the cars intake vents. \*None of this is legal advice, I am not a lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-pulling-you-out-of-a-vehicle-not-a-conspiracy-theory/734319/11 "2015-10-12T04:46:00Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > The court decides if it is a lawful order. If you think it’s an unlawful order you’d best follow the instructions of the officer provided the order posses no immediate threat and settle your dispute in court. So, the bottom line, in practice, appears to be that the police can, at any time and any place and for any reason, order you do to anything they please, and you have no immediate recourse but to meekly obey their order. If you are right, and defending your right is of any value, tell it to the judge, after retaining an attorney and filing a suit. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-pulling-you-out-of-a-vehicle-not-a-conspiracy-theory/734319/12 "2015-10-12T05:08:18Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > So, the bottom line, in practice, appears to be that the police can, at any time and any place and for any reason, order you do to anything they please, and you have no immediate recourse but to meekly obey their order. If you are right, and defending your right is of any value, tell it to the judge, after retaining an attorney and filing a suit. Well if the officer behaved criminally you don’t have to retain an attorney nor file a suit. The state is more than capable of charging the officer with a crime and providing prosecution for criminal acts. If you want to sue the state for violating your rights and receive compensation for it, that’s on you. You won’t have much of a problem finding legal support if the officer behaved criminally. You have to listen to law enforcement if they tell you to do something. What alternative do you think there should be? ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-pulling-you-out-of-a-vehicle-not-a-conspiracy-theory/734319/13 "2015-10-12T05:55:48Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > So, the bottom line, in practice, appears to be that the police can, at any time and any place and for any reason, order you do to anything they please No. Where did you get that from this? You have to be lawfully detained and it has to be legal for the officer to be where he’s at. I can’t just go up to a guy sitting in a legally parked car and tell him to get out unless I’m detaining him for something. I can’t just walk into someones back yard and order them to grill me a burger. I suppose I could but I’d have no legal authority to do anything about it if they refuse, whereas if a person in a vehicle is being detained and refuses my order to get out I can do something about it. ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-pulling-you-out-of-a-vehicle-not-a-conspiracy-theory/734319/14 "2015-10-12T05:57:41Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > So, the bottom line, in practice, appears to be that the police can, at any time and any place and for any reason, order you do to anything they please, and you have no immediate recourse but to meekly obey their order. If you are right, and defending your right is of any value, tell it to the judge, after retaining an attorney and filing a suit. Yes. Welcome to America, land of the Free!\* \*Freedom only applies to individuals of the right skin color, who are appealing to potential jury members, and who can afford competent legal representation. For everyone else, watch your ass, buddy, you live in the largest police state that has ever existed. ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-pulling-you-out-of-a-vehicle-not-a-conspiracy-theory/734319/15 "2015-10-12T05:59:36Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > Well if the officer behaved criminally you don’t have to retain an attorney nor file a suit. The state is more than capable of charging the officer with a crime and providing prosecution for criminal acts. When they want to. This literally only happens if someone catches the officer on video with their gun still smoking. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-pulling-you-out-of-a-vehicle-not-a-conspiracy-theory/734319/16 "2015-10-12T06:25:51Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > When they want to. This literally only happens if someone catches the officer on video with their gun still smoking. You might be looking for the pit thread, this is general questions. Your above quote is certainly not true. There are hundreds of incidents. where police officers have been prosecuted. where there has been no video evidence and no shots were even fired. ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-pulling-you-out-of-a-vehicle-not-a-conspiracy-theory/734319/17 "2015-10-12T06:31:14Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > You might be looking for the pit thread, this is general questions. > > Your above quote is certainly not true. There are hundreds of incidents. where police officers have been prosecuted. where there has been no video evidence and no shots were even fired. Your statement ignores the literally hundreds of thousands of incidents, probably millions, where police officers were taken at their word despite the video and witnesses showing something else. Certainly, whenever there is a questionable shooting, it is more than 90% likely that the internal investigation will find the officer did nothing wrong. Even if this is true, the officer is not being treated the same as private citizens are treated. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-pulling-you-out-of-a-vehicle-not-a-conspiracy-theory/734319/18 "2015-10-12T06:44:21Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > Your statement ignores the literally hundreds of thousands of incidents, probably millions, where police officers were taken at their word despite the video and witnesses showing something else. Certainly, whenever there is a questionable shooting, it is more than 90% likely that the internal investigation will find the officer did nothing wrong. > > Even if this is true, the officer is not being treated the same as private citizens are treated. In general I’m not all that supportive of law enforcement, I think there is ample area for improvement. The statement you made: [QUOTE=Habeed] When they want to. This literally only happens if someone catches the officer on video with their gun still smoking. [/QUOTE] Is not true. Are you going to stand by it? What do you think the alternative should be if and when a police officer orders a citizen to do something? ‘nah I don’t think it’s a lawful order, I’m going to continue to drive home’ ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-pulling-you-out-of-a-vehicle-not-a-conspiracy-theory/734319/19 "2015-10-12T06:56:39Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > In general I’m not all that supportive of law enforcement, I think there is ample area for improvement. > > The statement you made: > > Is not true. Are you going to stand by it? It’s basically true. English is vague. “Their gun still smoking” can also mean evidence that is so definitive it’s called “the smoking gun”. I’m standing by it as it is essentially a factual statement - it is vanishingly rare for police officers to be prosecuted for crimes committed while on duty. No officer has been convicted of murder in decades, despite the cops gunning down hundreds of people a year, many times what other nations feel they need to shoot on the streets. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-pulling-you-out-of-a-vehicle-not-a-conspiracy-theory/734319/20 "2015-10-12T07:08:21Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > It’s basically true. English is vague. “Their gun still smoking” can also mean evidence that is so definitive it’s called “the smoking gun”. I’m standing by it as it is essentially a factual statement - it is vanishingly rare for police officers to be prosecuted for crimes committed while on duty. No officer has been convicted of murder in decades, despite the cops gunning down hundreds of people a year, many times what other nations feel they need to shoot on the streets. You literally have a poor understanding of the English language. My original comment had nothing to do with murder so I have no idea why you’ve made up that set of goal posts. Now you are going to double down with another untrue statement? [QUOTE=Habeed] No officer has been convicted of murder in decades [/QUOTE] [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-police-pulling-you-out-of-a-vehicle-not-a-conspiracy-theory/734319.md?page=2)