# US ranked #5 - not trying hard enough **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 30, 2011, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-ranked-5-not-trying-hard-enough/576526 "2011-03-30T16:46:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-ranked-5-not-trying-hard-enough/576526/21 "2011-03-30T17:41:32Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > That’s not capital punishment, which is execution through the judicial process. Your example is “vigilantism”. You are judge, jury and executioner. Some fiddly details are different but it is the same in spirit. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-ranked-5-not-trying-hard-enough/576526/22 "2011-03-30T17:44:12Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > It’s not vigiliantism either; it’s an expedient measure taken to protect a “must not fail” mission. Again…fiddly details. You are killing someone who is a danger to your society. You have tried him and judged him in your own fashion. You cannot afford to imprison him. If you could you might do that but you can’t. So you kill him. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-ranked-5-not-trying-hard-enough/576526/23 "2011-03-30T17:51:50Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > You are killing someone who is a danger to your society. Capital punishment isn’t a measure taken to protect society from a dangerous person; it’s punishment for a person who has already damaged society. Your example is comparable to a police officer shooting a suspect who is endangering the public: the intent is to stop/prevent harm when there’s no other way to do so. That’s not capital punishment, it’s justifiable homicide. (just so we’re clear, I wouldn’t complain if the US were higher on that list…) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-ranked-5-not-trying-hard-enough/576526/24 "2011-03-30T17:56:03Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Because Americans pride themselves on having a country that is more committed to justice and superior to countries like China and Yemen and North Korea from a human rights perspective. I think we do/are. But I don’t consider the death penalty a human rights question. I mean, if people are being executed for criticizing the government (which probably does happen in places like N. Korea), that’s a human rights question, or if people are being executed without fair trials or something, that’s a human rights question. But I don’t see executions in and of themselves to be more violative of human rights than imprisonment, just more final. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-ranked-5-not-trying-hard-enough/576526/25 "2011-03-30T18:30:27Z")
Well, the devil is in the details. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-ranked-5-not-trying-hard-enough/576526/26 "2011-03-30T18:30:59Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > (just so we’re clear, I wouldn’t complain if the US were higher on that list…) How much higher? Do you have an upper limit? 1000 executions/year? 10,000? Executions for bank robbery? Theft? Just wondering where you are on the continuum. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-ranked-5-not-trying-hard-enough/576526/27 "2011-03-30T19:04:47Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Even with the knowledge that capital punishment is WRONG, always and everywhere? Why? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-ranked-5-not-trying-hard-enough/576526/28 "2011-03-30T19:13:22Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I think we do/are. And yet most people would be pretty uncomfortable being in that kind of international company. That’s the essence of the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-ranked-5-not-trying-hard-enough/576526/29 "2011-03-30T19:16:58Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Capital punishment isn’t a measure taken to protect society from a dangerous person; it’s punishment for a person who has already damaged society. No, it’s just self indulgent bloodlust. That’s why supporters seldom seem to care about the problem of innocents being executed, or whether it acts as a deterrent or not. It’s killing for the sake of killing. EDIT: As it happens, I’m not against executing people in the abstract. But given how it is actually implemented and given the attitudes of the people who support it, I oppose capital punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-ranked-5-not-trying-hard-enough/576526/30 "2011-03-30T19:18:01Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Executions for bank robbery? Theft? Simple/sneaky theft? Naw. Robbery under genuine threat of deadly force? Sure. By “genuine,” I mean if you rob someone at gunpoint, and your gun doesn’t have any bullets in it, then the threat wasn’t genuine; OTOH, if your gun has bullets in it, then as far as I’m concerned, you were prepared to kill someone to accomplish your robbery/escape. Off with your head, whether you actually killed someone or not. Guilty of murder? No “20 to life, out in ten for good behavior;” death penalty. I wonder how far those two measures alone would move us up the list. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-ranked-5-not-trying-hard-enough/576526/31 "2011-03-30T19:20:12Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Even with the knowledge that capital punishment is WRONG, always and everywhere? > > Why does that work for you? Assumes facts not in evidence. I’m guessing it’ll be less than 5 min. before I get educated as to the proper use of that phrase… ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-ranked-5-not-trying-hard-enough/576526/32 "2011-03-30T19:32:27Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > Assumes facts not in evidence. > > I’m guessing it’ll be less than 5 min. before I get educated as to the proper use of that phrase… No, that’s the right meaning of the phrase. The anti-death-penalty people have not (yet) provided evidence that it’s wrong, in this thread. However, it’s an old debate, which we’ve had many times before, and I’m not sure that it’s worth re-hashing in the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-ranked-5-not-trying-hard-enough/576526/33 "2011-03-30T19:34:51Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Even with the knowledge that capital punishment is WRONG, always and everywhere? > > Why does that work for you? Boy do you sound really stupid with a statement like that. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-ranked-5-not-trying-hard-enough/576526/34 "2011-03-30T19:35:53Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And yet most people would be pretty uncomfortable being in that kind of international company. That’s the essence of the discussion. It’s a stupid discussion, then. Like I pointed out, Japan, Taiwan and Botswana are on the list too, but nobody ever says, “What do Japan, Taiwan, Botswana and the US have in common? They all execute people.” It’s nothing more than an appeal to emotion; to try to link the United States with nasty countries, and to make people associate the death penalty with “bad” countries. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-ranked-5-not-trying-hard-enough/576526/35 "2011-03-30T19:43:46Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Boy do you sound really stupid with a statement like that. Is that a question? Because the answer is no. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-ranked-5-not-trying-hard-enough/576526/36 "2011-03-30T19:45:27Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Simple/sneaky theft? Naw. Robbery under genuine threat of deadly force? Sure. By “genuine,” I mean if you rob someone at gunpoint, and your gun doesn’t have any bullets in it, then the threat wasn’t genuine; OTOH, if your gun has bullets in it, then as far as I’m concerned, you were prepared to kill someone to accomplish your robbery/escape. Off with your head, whether you actually killed someone or not. > > Guilty of murder? No “20 to life, out in ten for good behavior;” death penalty. > > I wonder how far those two measures alone would move us up the list. Well… There are around 15,000 murders per year in the US. I could not find the conviction rate for murder but I note that after Canada abolished the death penalty, convictions for 1st degree murder actually rose from 10% to 20%, suggesting that juries did not enjoy making the decision to kill someone. So let’s say 10% conviction rate - that’s about 1500 executions/year for murder. [In 2009, there were](http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm) about 400,000 forcible robberies in the US. Let’s say a 20% conviction/execution rate. That would be about 80,000 executions/year. So, that would be about 81,500 executions/year. I’d say that would put you at #1! Something to shoot for (so to speak!) You’d have to get a lot more efficient at executions though. Look to China - they seem to have a good methodology - they’re not really into dragging appeals out past a week. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-ranked-5-not-trying-hard-enough/576526/37 "2011-03-30T19:51:39Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > It’s nothing more than an appeal to emotion So? Some of the most common arguments in support of the death penalty are based in emotion. ‘They’re bad people,’ ‘think of the families,’ etc. Capital punishment doesn’t do very well once you get down to facts since it doesn’t deter crime or bring people back to life. > [@](#): > > to try to link the United States with nasty countries, and to make people associate the death penalty with “bad” countries. Unfortunately that list speaks for itself. You can find a handful of democratic countries and a lot of countries Americans don’t want to be compared to - including a bunch where the people are trying to get rid of their governments. By the way, Japan, Taiwan and Bostwana (total population: around 152 million) combined to execute 6 people last year. Ohio killed 6 and Texas did 17. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-ranked-5-not-trying-hard-enough/576526/38 "2011-03-30T19:52:33Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Is that a question? Because the answer is no. He making and absolute statement about an issue with a very high disagreement. I am not particularly in favor of the death penalty but statements like **kaylasdad99** ’s sound asinine. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-ranked-5-not-trying-hard-enough/576526/39 "2011-03-30T20:06:36Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > So, that would be about 81,500 executions/year. 223 executions per day? Every day? That’s awesome! Maybe that kind of slaughter would have some deterrent value, and we’d see the crime rate (and execution rate) head down from there. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-ranked-5-not-trying-hard-enough/576526/40 "2011-03-30T20:13:33Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Maybe that kind of slaughter would have some deterrent value, and we’d see the crime rate (and execution rate) head down from there. And then pixies would fly out of a rainbow and do a happy dance. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-ranked-5-not-trying-hard-enough/576526.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-ranked-5-not-trying-hard-enough/576526.md?page=3)